But no one bought Palms or Windows CE devices in the end, everyone bought cheap mobile phones from Nokia, Moto, Samsung etc. PDAs are now a long-forgotten backwater with little commercial significance.

IMHO the whole iPhone vs Whatever argument is pointless, they're all incredily expensive devices that no one will buy.

The 5 to 10 million iPhones a year that Apple is aiming for is a 0.5% to 1% market share, close to nothing.

The recent $199 iPhone announcement had me excited until I realised didn't actually cost $199, that's just the first payment of a 2 year contract. The actual cost of the cheapest new iPhone hardware is probably nearer $600 when you tot it all up, plus the compulsory monthly charges for calls whether you use it or not take the total price well over $1000. This is yet another gadget that no one will actually buy.

It's the cheap phones we ought to be looking at, but the media never does.

In the real world price is the main feature people think about when buying a gadget. The price is the bottom line, it makes the difference between buying something and not buying it.

IPhone sales are not relatively low considering the fact that until recently, it was USA & AT&T only (and there it beats Nokia sales easily). Now, that is dramatically changing, iPhone will be available in 70 countries this year with great 3rd party apps, so at last I can switch. Those 3rd party app demos at WWDC convinced me to switch to iPhone...

iPhone - one design, one form factor, one proposition - for all the people. Can't work for ever, there are lots of people with different needs. And what will happen in 10 months time when the iPhone v3 is announced and all the iPhone v2 customers (e.g. on O2 with V1 iPhones at the moment) have 12-24 months still left on their contracts?

Just like S60 phones from Nokia. What's your point? Why are you on this site then, why not on allabout$50nokias4africa.com?

krisse: based on your logic, BMW, Mercedes etc. are not significant car makers, they hardly have more than a few percent market share and they are quite expensive. And you can customize you suzuki swift much better.

Yeah, the phone market in the real world for the vast majority of people is not all about touchscreen phones, Krisse's right. HOWEVER, AAS has specifically posted this article in the news meaning they wanted to highlight and discuss it, and it's specifically about touchscreens, therefore that's all we should be considering here.

So...given that, of course the N95 wouldn't be considered - where's the touchscreen!? If the only handset that runs Symbian happens to be crap, fair enough. I think we all already know that Symbian and NSeries etc. trounce the iPhone in various ways, but as regards a *touchscreen* model comparison, this Sony phone is obviously crap for other reasons. Fair play.
Of course everything in this article should be compared to the iPhone - it has by FAR the best touchscreen implementation of any phone out there, and that's the initial basis on which the article is making comparisons.

Nokias (etc) also have added costs over the course of a contract, let's be fair.

Listen, NOTHING is stopping Nokia making an iPhone-beating touchscreen implementation. Then they'd have it all - the great hardware and platform AND a great touchscreen. The S60 touch demos seen so far do not exactly set the world alight. Nokia don't really have any excuses here - they're THE phone experts. They should be doing the world-beating stuff. If Apple come along and surpass them on various fronts, that's Nokia's fault.

That said, Nokia may well look at their sales figures, and their understanding of the market, and realise that over the whole of their phone business, a superb touchscreen is neither here nor there - it doesn't have THAT much importance to them - i.e. they can afford to lose people who want the iPhone's superb touchscreen over Nokia's OK touchscreen. Disappointing for some of us, but that's business for you. Anyway, let's wait and see. S60 touch might be better than we're expecting.

Alex Kerr
CEO
phonething.com

I am having a n95 8gb and i am sorry to say that iphone smokes n95 out clearly in usablity... n95 is very slow in loading gallery that it takes almost a minute to see what are my photos.... what is the use of all features list if the software running it is not good?
the userfriendlyness of iphone is too good and i would say that if given a chance i would choose iphone over n95 eyes closed!

While I do know Times is in no way a geek mag, statements like "Also, some of the Windows-based software is very slow, although the HTC does come with a quantity of programs that befits a proper smartphone" are just too vague (they must be referring to the very slow and sub-par TouchFlo 3D, not to the other OS apps or add-on programs in general.) And, you can just disable this TouchFlo 3D crap and use the standard interface instead if you're fed up with the slowness of it.

(Not that I defend the Diamond. IMHO, it sucks like hell because of the 4GB stroage and the lack of memory card slot. I wouldn't buy it at all.)

Here we go again, an assumption that everyone wants a touchscreen. No thanks, if operating a phone was my life then perhaps, but it's not and thank goodness for that!

Operating a phone is my life and I still don't want a touchscreen. All phones lack something, while the iPhone lacks even the things that most budget phones have. MMS being the first feature that springs to mind.

I have my s60 phone set up to be my instant messenger, my e-mail device, my full web browser, my music player, my camera, my image editor, my mp3 cutter, my handheld gaming device, my e-book reader and even my phone. I don't have a computer in any form apart from my phone and I don't use it over Wi-fi even though I can if I need to.

How many iPhone owners can say that and not be lying through their teeth? Sure, it's got a nice user interface, but style above substance is something I've never been a fan of. If people really need to show off an expensive device that doesn't do half of the things something half the price does then that's their problem.

Well, one thing we can be sure. Apple did put touch screens back on the mobile map. Their approach of gaining screensize by using a touchscreen while 'keeping' mobile phone dimensions was very pretty looking. Their effort to improve data-input with a touchscreen into a workable solution is very laudable ;-). Very innovative when comparing it to early Palm and UIQ, grandiose and heroic when comparing it to Windows Mobile. But then Making things simple is Apple at its core business. And the iPhone is basically a simple device.

However great touch is for interactive menu browsing and more. It is never a replacement for a real keyboard when talking fast data input. As such I see future touch screens with a navigation keypad as the new E66 or the N95 and slider mini-qwerty keyboard for data entry. Nokia's silence about their touch plans show they are planning slightly more than just a touch phone. Perhaps a whole T-series party in August... T-for touch that is.

Like the upcoming (overdue) Sony X1?

Thats a 3" touchscreen and has a slide out very decent qwerty. And unlike the HTC TYTN2, its a reasonable size. Still big, but reasonable. I must admit, if it wasnt for the 6220C, Id be very interested in that.

I absolutely love the design. And it looks rather functional and practical too. Even However currently Nokia seems to have the nicest software collection and quality hardware all in one solution. Touch screens are definitely currently the flashiest gimmick for mobile phones. I just hope there is a practical benefit for us too. I doubt touch screens will ever be great until you can 3D-shape the screen. But I'll settle for adequate when combined with a large screen size, navigation buttons and mini-qwerty.

Webbrowsing and messaging are becoming an important part of the mobile experience.

Can you imagine what would happen if nokia released an X1 alike?

No reason why they cant better that spec either, add a 5MP cam and perhaps TV out.

Would that kick arse? Oh yes.

Kick ass you mean ;-). That poor donkey. Anyway, guess what I am waiting for ;^). Note that the form factor should be N95 sized!

QUOTE: "snoyt
Well, one thing we can be sure. Apple did put touch screens back on the mobile map. Their approach of gaining screensize by using a touchscreen while 'keeping' mobile phone dimensions "

I find the iPhone oversize, too large for a pocket - OK for Americans who seem to wear them in belt holsters. It's has to be big because the finger thing wouldn't work otherwise and this is a major disadavantage and a good reason for keeping key input.

I also dislike the two handed operation that most things require a bit poor two. My wife bought me an iPhone for my birthday, nice thought. I persevered with it for two weeks but once you are over the snazzy interface, what's left? A mile wide and an inch deep.

We ought? That's rather strong.

krisse, looking at mobile phones overall, I am all with you regarding the importance and "revolution potential" of cheap phones.

But, frankly, I am here because I am interested in smart phones that I can write fully-featured programs for myself, and those phones happen to be expensive still, so no, I ought not looking at cheap phones - not yet, anyway.

The Apple fan crowd can be mightily annoying with their arguments that iPhones will take over the world, but please don't let us throw out the baby with the bathwater and turn AAS into a non-smartphone-club just because of this.

I do wonder how many people live in an Apple bubble. This is from the comments on the Times website:

"If I read the reports on the iPhone correctly this machine brings a new dimension as it is going to able to run a lot of software under development by a plethora of programmers. No longer just a phone more a mini pocket computer, no longer just a web browser and emailer.
Is Jobs is a visionary?"

I put good money on it that this donut has never even heard of an N95, let alone Symbian.

Nokia and Symbian really need to market themselves better!

It must be tough though - I've heard the "200 pound iPhone" lie repeated over and over again on mainstream media - presumably the presenters don't know any better. Jobs must be laughing the way the media lap up his every word.

yes yes okay,

apple are swinging in to action with its media steam roller ' the finger is the greatest tool,etc...' but if a touch screen really was the consumer demand, wouldn't the series 90 models have taken off by now?

just take a reality check here, some people are being suckered by the apple media machine without thinking about what is really useful. people actually prefer keypads, walk down the high street, look at mobiles, from simple mobiles to N95s. that's what real people use, and if you asked them, they'd tell you they're on PAYG, so forget all the data you can eat at £35 a month! the iphone is a niche. i live in london and i can honestly say i have only seen 1 person with an iphone in the last year. where are these sales coming from to say that this is a technological revolution? be straight, most people are buying bog standard mobiles. it's the media that whip the iphone demand up, they love a good story, and apple are giving it to them.

iphone is going to be like the imacs - they have their small number of (illogical) fans but not the numbers. as some one has already reported, apple fans think they are anti-corporate but apple are the most demanding of corporate companies - releasing stuff annually to make people think their lovely shiny stuff is old hat so they upgrade. it's a con! apple is the tailor for the emperor's new clothes, but no one says it!

let's see how many people on the street have iphones compared to nseries nokia phones a year from now.

Personally i find a touch screen device possibly nice but not necessary for a mobile phone/pda. At present these screens loose sensitivity over time and once one becomes familiar with the keyboard MOST navigation is easier using keys IMO. I have had a N95 8GB for 6 months now and the camera, video, music functions and connectivity options are very high quality. There is so much to like about this phone - it does most things very well. The internal speakers are very loud and clear and it is a pleasure to use with handsfree. So Nokia IMO have it when it comes down to the quality of the phones features. When Nokia eventually release a touchscreen it will most likely be exceptional.

I dunno about the other devices, but the W960 has surely been underrated in this comparitive review. I've used this device and its pretty impressive. The W960 is not slow, its speed matches S60 smartphones, its as fast as a symbian device can currently get. The key feature, the excellent walkman player touch hasn't even been mentioned, which is by far the best music player on a phone ever! And as far as music quality goes, it beats the Iphone by a mile ( I'm not exaggerating, check out GsmArena's test)The USB transfer speeds are blazing fast, and the hardware buttons are in no way uncomfortable. I do admit that a D-pad would have been pretty helpful, but you can easily navigate using the Jog dial and your finger. The UI may not be as flashy as the HTC touch diamond or the Iphone, but its pretty good.
W960 beats all the other phones in this comparison, except perhaps the HTC Touch Diamond.

Anyhoo...it's just one guy's opinion, so doesn't matter anyway.

The majority of mobile phone users are only using call & sms. The reason for this is that the UI for other features (e.g. browsing internet) is too complicated for the average user. Iphone can bring browsing to mass market. If we give the N95 and Iphone to the average user to browse the internet . Which one do you think user will find better?

I disagree, its more about people affording data plans. And many more people are using their mobile for online now. Even people with basic phones, like the 6300. How many people do you see update their facebook profile by mobile? I see loads, and most of those dont have smartphones.

Theres nothing difficult about selecting the 'web' icon, its no different from selecting messages, or contacts.

But I dont know anyone that likes browsing by phone, its just far too small. The 3" display on the iphone makes it a bit easier, as well as the clever zoom feature. If anything, thats what will make it better, but its still nowhere near a nice expirence browsing the web on any device that size.

best phone with touch screen is my 7710 :)

It seems impossible for krisse to comment anything without it being a rant.

Palms have been succesful products. You constantly seem to forget that different products have different goals set for them, determined by the real world demand for example.

Dead wrong. They are extremely important and vital products for brand building. Brand sells, and more importantly, brand enables bigger profits.

10 million is a significant amount for one phone model.

Have you ever heard of words brand or equity, or even better, of the combination of the two? Business is never only about selling as much as possible. In order to survive and prosper in the long run, you have to constantly build your company's brand.

You keep on making these generalisations which are pointless. Price is a factor when buying, not the only factor. Have you never thought to yourself "naahh.. what the heck, I don't care about the price, I'll just go for it and buy it"?