All About Symbian - Symbian, Nokia and S60 unwrapped.
Is PR more important than specs for the smartphone ecosystem?
Published by Ewan Spence at 14:18 UTC, July 13th 2010
There's been a lot of noise on the internet this week about issues in the smartphone world. And while the initial reading of all these words is to tell a story, it's actually more about controlling the PR message and protecting a brand (and ergo sales) of software and hardware. There's a lesson in all of this for Nokia and the Symbian Foundation. You've either got it, or you haven't. And right now Symbian and S60 don't have it. Read on...
“Show me the money.”
At the end of the day, all the wonderful pieces of technology we carry, write about, lust after, despise, rant, all the smartphones built by factories around the world, with stickers and labels placed on them, all need to be sold.
It's all about selling you something. It could be the latest hardware, it could be to get you signed up and using a service (and with those free to use services you're there so the company can sell you and what you represent), it could even be as simple as downloading an application and paying your one euro, that then gets split up between all the interested parties.
It's getting less about technology and more about image. And that means that the art of selling has changed.
The people who can make money from the initial stages of a revolution are the people who supply the tools and basic hardware. The bits and pieces people will happily sit down, read the manual, and get to grips with it. But over time this changes as the revolution matures and becomes commonplace.
The need changes from a rather basic one to something a bit more esoteric, a bit more fashion conscious. What other people think about your choice rises up the scale of importance (diminishing the power of the inward-looking complicated tool).
As technology becomes commonplace, it's about the perception of the tool, not the tool itself. When there are multiple choices available, with roughly the same capability, the ability to compete on just a specification or a price list is not enough. That's where the marketing department come in, that's where the perception of your software or hardware come in. It's just as important to control what people think of your offering as well as controlling what goes into your offering.
Let's take a few examples from the recent news – all of which are cases that directly affect a product, but have very little to do with the mechanics of what is going on.
Gartner first, and a blog post (with a lovely link-bait headline) from Nick Jones on the fortunes of Symbian going forward over the next few years. The argument is a well worn one on both sides - the delay in getting Symbian^4 and the new UI into the hands of the consumers (and the analysts!) and the loss of market share during this lull – and I'm not going to go into that now. What I wanted to draw attention to was that this article damages the perception of Symbian and needs to be countered. Actually not even countered, Symbian's point of view should already be out there and a robust rebuttal needs to be delivered.
People will not buy a dying system – it's not cool. They will buy a system that promises the future. Deep in the story of Symbian is the path the future will take, but is it front and centre and easy to see so that people will buy into it? Apparently not.
Of course, Gartner are promoting themselves with this story as much as their thoughts on Symbian, and with this story pick up brownie points from those who agree (and want to be seen to agree with) the view they have written up. It's not the truth, it's the meta-truth that counts.
How about the news from Fring and Skype yesterday that the two systems would no longer work together? We looked at this at AAS in what we could write about, and saw company A say one thing, company B said another, and an explosion of blog posts, comments and opinion online trying to work out which was the “right” answer.
Not which answer was the one following the letter of the rights in the API terms of use, not the answer which would stand up to forensic scrutiny, but the answer which felt right. The Fring/Skype dispute is being fought in the realms of PR, trying to cast the story so positively to your company (or so negatively against the other) that the cost in terms of brand reputation in following the strict TnC conditions is more than just caving in and giving them what they want.
You can see it time and time again in stories online – the technology is not the key to sales. Perception of the product is the key to the sales. If you have a strong image in the public's eye, then you can get away with quite a bit (such as an antenna assembly that suppresses a lot of the signal if your hand is in the wrong place). But you can't trade on a good name forever, and people have long memories.
That's one of the reasons why the problems with the N97 were so damaging to Nokia. It was a phone that held a lot of promise, and many people were holding on that this would be the next big phone after the N95. Unfortunately it wasn't to be, and some manufacturing problems, some unfortunate memory decisions and under-developed software saw a lot of people who did buy the N97 become very unhappy with Nokia. Rightly or wrongly, the collaborative relationship of Nokia and Symbian became unfashionable.
There is no denying that the ecosystem does have a perception problem – and one of the first public moves made by the new head of Nokia's Mobile Solutions Anssi Vanjoki was to address these on the Nokia Conversations blog – but it's not enough to just deliver a solid message and say that an impressively specced mobile phone is on the way.
Vanjoki has the hardest challenge of his life. To make people want to buy Nokia again. He can't do that just from having the best hardware. He has to make Nokia's name attractive again, he has to make it cool to like the Finns (again), he has to go on the offensive. And there are no half measures, he needs 100% commitment to win back the cool points.
That goes for anyone in the smartphone space – the goal is not to be the best product, the goal is to be thought of as the best product. Symbian and its partners (especial Nokia) clearly pass the first part of that challenge, it's the second that's going to make life interesting over the next year.
-- Ewan Spence, AAS, July 2010.
News Discussion
gadget freak
Could Nokia get away with releasing a device that lost a signal if held properly?
Funny thing is, they have. Since Apples signal problems got 'exposed', it also threw the light on other phones that apparently have a similar issue. Its been discussed on several forums and almost every podcast in the last couple of weeks.
Thats the downside about PR and the press. They can make you look like the second coming, or bite you in the ass. (and they're generally happier to do the latter)
Funny thing is, they have. Since Apples signal problems got 'exposed', it also threw the light on other phones that apparently have a similar issue. Its been discussed on several forums and almost every podcast in the last couple of weeks.
Thats the downside about PR and the press. They can make you look like the second coming, or bite you in the ass. (and they're generally happier to do the latter)
Unregistered
i agree with this article but we all need to be VERY wary of a US-centric view.
Nokia/Symbian are very much aspired to in much of the world, with Nokia smartphones having over 60% smartphone market share in the combined Europe, Middle East and Africa region and over 80% in Asia-Pacific.
Much of the noise we in the UK, US and Australia hear is from US based or biased media. They REALLY do not understand Nokia or Symbian, or like them, and there is also a significant pride issue in that Apple and Google are loud and proud American companies, while Nokia to them is some 'dodgy foreigner'.
We recently saw huge queues in Indonesia for i think the new Nokia X3. What exactly is so different between that and queues outside Apple stores for iPhone 4? Nothing. Nothing unless we in the UK or US think we're the centre of the mobile universe, which we're not.
Nokia/Symbian are very much aspired to in much of the world, with Nokia smartphones having over 60% smartphone market share in the combined Europe, Middle East and Africa region and over 80% in Asia-Pacific.
Much of the noise we in the UK, US and Australia hear is from US based or biased media. They REALLY do not understand Nokia or Symbian, or like them, and there is also a significant pride issue in that Apple and Google are loud and proud American companies, while Nokia to them is some 'dodgy foreigner'.
We recently saw huge queues in Indonesia for i think the new Nokia X3. What exactly is so different between that and queues outside Apple stores for iPhone 4? Nothing. Nothing unless we in the UK or US think we're the centre of the mobile universe, which we're not.
Unregistered
Apple phones has os upgrades for 2 years. Android depending on the phone some got few but some lots.
So from that stand point any phone with symbian that doesn't get major os upgrades is already dead. This is further compounded by the fact symbian announced the end of the road for the current UI and starting over.
Nokia is selling more Symbian phones as the os gets pushed down but that is the problem as its the high end phones gets the buzz.
So from that stand point any phone with symbian that doesn't get major os upgrades is already dead. This is further compounded by the fact symbian announced the end of the road for the current UI and starting over.
Nokia is selling more Symbian phones as the os gets pushed down but that is the problem as its the high end phones gets the buzz.
Unregistered
The real problem is that Nokia and Symbian keeps beating themselves up internally.
Why bother pouring resources into Symbian^3 or Symbian^4 when Meego is coming around the corner. Why not just stabilize and simplify S60v3 and get it leaner, especially since memory and resource requirements shot up between FP1 and FP2? Why keep sending these conflicting messages to consumers and developers that make them scratch their heads? It's better to just make the one bet and focus on getting it right instead of trying to make sure two parties aren't stepping on each other. Everyone keeps harping Qt, but where is there one single productivity app built on Qt for Nokia? And one that will work with both platforms? Anything demoed? At all?!?! It all sounds vaporware-ish, like Java everywhere, but Java S60v3 apps won't work on S60v5, and vice versa. The only thing compelling I've seen from Java ME on S60 is Opera Mini.
These are the real reasons Symbian is so hated by the industry now, not because of Apple or Android. No one knows what Symbian can offer now, and every fanboy here is basically harping on accomplishments that were done FOUR YEARS AGO at their height with the N95 & N73 and handsets under OMAP. Symbian has offered nothing compelling ever since, yet flailed around like a headless beast, which truly explains the market share slide. It sounds so much like the dying trying to hold on to the past. Sheesh!
Symbian better hit a homerun coming fall, or else they're pretty much going to go the way of Palm OS, except I doubt there will be a buyer like Access around. Every fanboy in those days defended Palm OS to the hilt with market share, installed base, blah blah until they fell off a cliff. Nokia will still be around for a long while, but it's future is definitely set in Meego.
-Gene
Why bother pouring resources into Symbian^3 or Symbian^4 when Meego is coming around the corner. Why not just stabilize and simplify S60v3 and get it leaner, especially since memory and resource requirements shot up between FP1 and FP2? Why keep sending these conflicting messages to consumers and developers that make them scratch their heads? It's better to just make the one bet and focus on getting it right instead of trying to make sure two parties aren't stepping on each other. Everyone keeps harping Qt, but where is there one single productivity app built on Qt for Nokia? And one that will work with both platforms? Anything demoed? At all?!?! It all sounds vaporware-ish, like Java everywhere, but Java S60v3 apps won't work on S60v5, and vice versa. The only thing compelling I've seen from Java ME on S60 is Opera Mini.
These are the real reasons Symbian is so hated by the industry now, not because of Apple or Android. No one knows what Symbian can offer now, and every fanboy here is basically harping on accomplishments that were done FOUR YEARS AGO at their height with the N95 & N73 and handsets under OMAP. Symbian has offered nothing compelling ever since, yet flailed around like a headless beast, which truly explains the market share slide. It sounds so much like the dying trying to hold on to the past. Sheesh!
Symbian better hit a homerun coming fall, or else they're pretty much going to go the way of Palm OS, except I doubt there will be a buyer like Access around. Every fanboy in those days defended Palm OS to the hilt with market share, installed base, blah blah until they fell off a cliff. Nokia will still be around for a long while, but it's future is definitely set in Meego.
-Gene
Unregistered
If Motorola can do it(or at least be on the right track), so can Nokia- even though they don't have the luxury of having good street cred in the US; where all the opinion-leaders and developers are.
Hih
Apogolist article again. So boring. All About Anssi strikes again.
Unregistered
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hih
Apogolist article again. So boring. All About Anssi strikes again.
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Unregistered
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gadget freak
Could Nokia get away with releasing a device that lost a signal if held properly?
Funny thing is, they have. Since Apples signal problems got 'exposed', it also threw the light on other phones that apparently have a similar issue. Its been discussed on several forums and almost every podcast in the last couple of weeks. |
Unregistered
There's a reason why bloggers in the US are very biased against Nokia and Symbian. Nokia just doesn't give a damn about marketing over here and cares even less about tailoring their products to an American audience. I'm not saying they should put the US first and so on, I just don't really see why an average American (non-techies who don't read cell-phone OS blogs) would want a high end Nokia phone over an iPhone or Android. Those phones are tailored to the market. Hell, I'm really only gonna be buying the N8 for the camera. I don't expect the Ovi store to ever be worth a damn or for there to ever be an abundance of apps for it.
I love Nokia products and I've had multiple Nokia phones, but I'm starting to get a little jealous of my friends with Android's and iPhones. It'd be different if I lived in Europe or India....but I don't. If you're going to release a product in a certain territory, don't treat them like 2nd class citizens.
I love Nokia products and I've had multiple Nokia phones, but I'm starting to get a little jealous of my friends with Android's and iPhones. It'd be different if I lived in Europe or India....but I don't. If you're going to release a product in a certain territory, don't treat them like 2nd class citizens.
Unregistered
Just read on Daily Mobile that a Poll was made to see how many people would the next phone the bought would be a Nokia one an only 34% said yes,as people switching to iPhone or a Anroid phone,Nokia have invested loads into Symbian but the Software as been Very slow to Progress,Nokia have really now get themselves organised as they will be losing the European market to Samsung,as they use Bada an Anroid software on there mobiles,an the looks of there mobiles attract more than Plastic Nokia,O.k the Refurbished material Nokia use might be cost saving but,Plastic stratches an marks more easily,Nokia N8 a metal casing that looks Top Class but then the C6 a Plastic body that makes the phone look cheap,please produce more attcractive phones in Metal or you will lose more customers Nokia an its your Fault
arg0
"only 34% said yes"? you mean that in the poll Nokia would have 34% of marketshare? or was the poll only addressed to current Nokia users?
In any case, companies have priorities in marketing products, that's perfectly normal. Also Apple releases products in the US first.
Further, I don't think that Docomo will be dead in 2 years because I cannot buy their phones in Europe...
In any case, companies have priorities in marketing products, that's perfectly normal. Also Apple releases products in the US first.
Further, I don't think that Docomo will be dead in 2 years because I cannot buy their phones in Europe...
Arthur
Some of the comments here from Nokia apologists are comical.
May I present to you a few links?
Let's start with a Gartner analyst:
http://blogs.gartner.com/nick_jones/...n-the-titanic/
Go ahead and tell this respected analyst he's a "hater".
Next, let me remind you of Rick Cadden from symbian-guru.com, I don't think I need to tell you who this die-hard Nokia fan is:
http://www.symbian-guru.com/welcome/...m-is-over.html
Go and tell Ricky and many of the people that agree with him that they are "haters".
Now, let me direct you towards Trentonn Smith, a long time Nokia supporter and fanatic:
http://www.trentsense.com/2010/07/nokia-rant.html
Go and tell Trent that he is a "moron".
Lastly, I give you Russell Beattie, a Nokia employee. This man has more smarts than all of us put together. Please follow him on Twitter and make sure to let him know that S60/Symbian is great.
C'mon Symbian fans, the all 7 of you... go ahead and tell these respected individuals that they are "haters", go argue with them. Let's see how you do.
May I present to you a few links?
Let's start with a Gartner analyst:
http://blogs.gartner.com/nick_jones/...n-the-titanic/
Go ahead and tell this respected analyst he's a "hater".
Next, let me remind you of Rick Cadden from symbian-guru.com, I don't think I need to tell you who this die-hard Nokia fan is:
http://www.symbian-guru.com/welcome/...m-is-over.html
Go and tell Ricky and many of the people that agree with him that they are "haters".
Now, let me direct you towards Trentonn Smith, a long time Nokia supporter and fanatic:
http://www.trentsense.com/2010/07/nokia-rant.html
Go and tell Trent that he is a "moron".
Lastly, I give you Russell Beattie, a Nokia employee. This man has more smarts than all of us put together. Please follow him on Twitter and make sure to let him know that S60/Symbian is great.
C'mon Symbian fans, the all 7 of you... go ahead and tell these respected individuals that they are "haters", go argue with them. Let's see how you do.
PDAMad
To me Nokia's downfall is endemic in their historic attitude to OS upgrades on all their smartphones. E.g.
Many Windows Mobile phones got upgrades from 6.0 to 6.1 or 6.5
Most recent Android phones got upgrades for 1.x to 2.x (and some hinted for 3.0)
Most recent Blackberry phones got upgrades from 4.0 to 5.x (and RIM hinting at 6.0)
All these updates gave major improvements in features and functionality.
Compare this to Nokia who have NEVER (AFAIK) upgraded any phone beyond its original FeaturePack level - e.g. if you buy a Nokia phone on S60 FP1, you'll be stuck with that until you throw it away. Even the N900, Nokia's most expensive phone, was supplied with an already obsolescent OS, with the move to "Meego" unsupported by Nokia.
No wonder then, that with overpriced hardware, a botched and dead OS, no "wow" factor to attract future investment, and a "we've got your money, now get stuffed" attitude to device future-proofing and upgradability, most people simply see Symbian as irrelevant.
Many Windows Mobile phones got upgrades from 6.0 to 6.1 or 6.5
Most recent Android phones got upgrades for 1.x to 2.x (and some hinted for 3.0)
Most recent Blackberry phones got upgrades from 4.0 to 5.x (and RIM hinting at 6.0)
All these updates gave major improvements in features and functionality.
Compare this to Nokia who have NEVER (AFAIK) upgraded any phone beyond its original FeaturePack level - e.g. if you buy a Nokia phone on S60 FP1, you'll be stuck with that until you throw it away. Even the N900, Nokia's most expensive phone, was supplied with an already obsolescent OS, with the move to "Meego" unsupported by Nokia.
No wonder then, that with overpriced hardware, a botched and dead OS, no "wow" factor to attract future investment, and a "we've got your money, now get stuffed" attitude to device future-proofing and upgradability, most people simply see Symbian as irrelevant.
Jimmy1
Nokia's problems are actually the result of their past success, and it's also similar to the problem that Microsoft also now faces: they're both so big, bloated and far flung with so many divisions and layers of management and bureaucracies, kind of like mini governments, that they're slow to act quickly to market forces.
Both companies are solidly in re-active mode, which has hurt them in industries that requires nimble companies and quick decision making. Just look at Google; they're issuing a new, updated, more feature packed version of Android virtually every 4-6 months. Meego and Symbian should be so lucky to get updated that quickly.
Also, as Ewan alludes, perception is key and Nokia (and Microsoft) are just simply, currently, uncool. And when you're dropping $300-$500 on a new gadget, cool-ness matters. The last time Nokia was really cool, they made the Matrix phone that Keanu used in the movie of the same name.
Both companies are solidly in re-active mode, which has hurt them in industries that requires nimble companies and quick decision making. Just look at Google; they're issuing a new, updated, more feature packed version of Android virtually every 4-6 months. Meego and Symbian should be so lucky to get updated that quickly.
Also, as Ewan alludes, perception is key and Nokia (and Microsoft) are just simply, currently, uncool. And when you're dropping $300-$500 on a new gadget, cool-ness matters. The last time Nokia was really cool, they made the Matrix phone that Keanu used in the movie of the same name.
Unregistered
Right now Nokia is selling low volume not so high margin or high volume low margin smart phones but are picking up the tab for the development for Symbian, Meego as well as S40.
Google pays for Android development while Apple spreads the cost of iOS from iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad to even the desktop/laptop/servers. Android phones tend to be and of course iphone are high margin products so of course those manufacturers can give away an os upgrade.
Nokia isn't playing in the OS upgrade game. Bad enough on its own but then you further add an S60 UI and Maemo tha'ts known to be a dead end.
How else should analysts and consumers react to Nokia smart phones.
Google pays for Android development while Apple spreads the cost of iOS from iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad to even the desktop/laptop/servers. Android phones tend to be and of course iphone are high margin products so of course those manufacturers can give away an os upgrade.
Nokia isn't playing in the OS upgrade game. Bad enough on its own but then you further add an S60 UI and Maemo tha'ts known to be a dead end.
How else should analysts and consumers react to Nokia smart phones.
Unregistered
In years past Nokia could at least count on more powerful hardware but now they don't even have that.
Hard to fight an PR battle when others proudly display their 1ghz processors while Nokia tends to even initially hide what it has under the hood.
Hard to fight an PR battle when others proudly display their 1ghz processors while Nokia tends to even initially hide what it has under the hood.
hary536
This is what i wrote to Nick"Gartner Analyst".
I think the moral of my comment was one of the parts of this article.
I think my comment on Gartner's post is same to your comment below.
"
Nick, i am sorry to say this to a person of your level, but will still say.
I am an average common man with no disposable cash or not enough non-disposable cash. I think people like you, i.e analysts, bloggers and media people are giving unfair importance to UI than anything else.
Yes UI is important, but i blame you and others to make it the most important part when deciding to buy a handset. It is because of these kind of widespread articles that people change their thinking, since they are highly influenced by thinking.
Yes, even if S^3 UI is evolutionary(and not revolutionary, which was already conveyed by SF and Nokia), if it removes the single tap/double tap issue, that itself is the single most important improvement that can reduce lot of frustration. That doesn’t mean more things can be improved, sure it can be and i believe will be.
I believe,if people were satisfied with a functional (not necessarily flashy) UI, which did not have any use-case frustrations, but gave more importance to the technology and what you can do with the device, then it would be a totally different playground.
Currently, what lot of common persons like me are being fooled and mis-guided to believe that UI is the most important thing when you decide to buy a handset, don’t worry about how powerful is, or what more things you can do. The current mentality is that, oh ok, there is X feature not present out of the box in the phone, you can buy an app for that, if available and someone will develop the app for that.
So in the end, i end up spending for useless or useful apps, which could have been present out of the box included in the price of the device, but no, you want common man to spend money on apps.
I have seen people spending money on “Fart-like” apps for iphone, but then they cry for $1-$2 in other things. They are ready to spend $500 for ipad/iphones, but won’t wear good clothes. I am just giving few examples, doesn’t mean that applies to majority, but people’s thinking and mentality and expectations do change and have changed due to these kind of articles online and marketing too. (by others).
But again, i do agree that UI is important but not so much important as you are making it out to be. I bet that if there are even 50 blog sites who write something like what i have mentioned above and maintain that consistent thinking, their readers mentality will start to change. It’s all about how you make people dance.
Like yours, this was just my opinion on the subject.
"
I think the moral of my comment was one of the parts of this article.
I think my comment on Gartner's post is same to your comment below.
"
Nick, i am sorry to say this to a person of your level, but will still say.
I am an average common man with no disposable cash or not enough non-disposable cash. I think people like you, i.e analysts, bloggers and media people are giving unfair importance to UI than anything else.
Yes UI is important, but i blame you and others to make it the most important part when deciding to buy a handset. It is because of these kind of widespread articles that people change their thinking, since they are highly influenced by thinking.
Yes, even if S^3 UI is evolutionary(and not revolutionary, which was already conveyed by SF and Nokia), if it removes the single tap/double tap issue, that itself is the single most important improvement that can reduce lot of frustration. That doesn’t mean more things can be improved, sure it can be and i believe will be.
I believe,if people were satisfied with a functional (not necessarily flashy) UI, which did not have any use-case frustrations, but gave more importance to the technology and what you can do with the device, then it would be a totally different playground.
Currently, what lot of common persons like me are being fooled and mis-guided to believe that UI is the most important thing when you decide to buy a handset, don’t worry about how powerful is, or what more things you can do. The current mentality is that, oh ok, there is X feature not present out of the box in the phone, you can buy an app for that, if available and someone will develop the app for that.
So in the end, i end up spending for useless or useful apps, which could have been present out of the box included in the price of the device, but no, you want common man to spend money on apps.
I have seen people spending money on “Fart-like” apps for iphone, but then they cry for $1-$2 in other things. They are ready to spend $500 for ipad/iphones, but won’t wear good clothes. I am just giving few examples, doesn’t mean that applies to majority, but people’s thinking and mentality and expectations do change and have changed due to these kind of articles online and marketing too. (by others).
But again, i do agree that UI is important but not so much important as you are making it out to be. I bet that if there are even 50 blog sites who write something like what i have mentioned above and maintain that consistent thinking, their readers mentality will start to change. It’s all about how you make people dance.
Like yours, this was just my opinion on the subject.
"
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arthur
Some of the comments here from Nokia apologists are comical.
May I present to you a few links? Let's start with a Gartner analyst: http://blogs.gartner.com/nick_jones/...n-the-titanic/ Go ahead and tell this respected analyst he's a "hater". Next, let me remind you of Rick Cadden from symbian-guru.com, I don't think I need to tell you who this die-hard Nokia fan is: http://www.symbian-guru.com/welcome/...m-is-over.html Go and tell Ricky and many of the people that agree with him that they are "haters". Now, let me direct you towards Trentonn Smith, a long time Nokia supporter and fanatic: http://www.trentsense.com/2010/07/nokia-rant.html Go and tell Trent that he is a "moron". Lastly, I give you Russell Beattie, a Nokia employee. This man has more smarts than all of us put together. Please follow him on Twitter and make sure to let him know that S60/Symbian is great. C'mon Symbian fans, the all 7 of you... go ahead and tell these respected individuals that they are "haters", go argue with them. Let's see how you do. |
Unregistered
If I talk to people I work with who are not particularly interested in phone technology, they have no idea whatsoever about the kind of topics and detail discussied on AAS. These people are the vast majority of people.
What the specs and details show are of no concern, what the web commentators and analysts say is of no concern to them. They don't care about any of this stuff (and increasingly with experience neither do I).
They will buy what looks good to them on the day or what is offered to them at upgrade time. This increasingly applies to smartphones, with ther mp3 players, games and maps.
So the PR battle is won with the mass media advertising, not the actual perceived performance of the devices.
For most, most of this stuff just doesn't matter. I have also discovered if this or that pedantic detail is missing, it's not the end of the world. Soon, within a couple of years, the smartphone market will level out and everything will need to be sold on price then style anyway.
What the specs and details show are of no concern, what the web commentators and analysts say is of no concern to them. They don't care about any of this stuff (and increasingly with experience neither do I).
They will buy what looks good to them on the day or what is offered to them at upgrade time. This increasingly applies to smartphones, with ther mp3 players, games and maps.
So the PR battle is won with the mass media advertising, not the actual perceived performance of the devices.
For most, most of this stuff just doesn't matter. I have also discovered if this or that pedantic detail is missing, it's not the end of the world. Soon, within a couple of years, the smartphone market will level out and everything will need to be sold on price then style anyway.
talhamid
"some manufacturing problems, some unfortunate memory decisions and under-developed software "
Hello - what ELSE is there in a phone? The N97, of which I am an unfortunate owner, was an unmitigated disaster. Make no mistake, Symbian was never fashionable, just functional. People bought N97 for its lovely build, form factor, and kitchen-sink specs, not to mention the 32 GB memory chip.
Guess what: 'lovely build' resulted in tarnished cameras, form factor was crippled due to a near-useless keyboard, and 32GB memory did an admirable job of bringing the phone to its knees if ever filled even halfway through. Here was a phone that seemed to be made by three different teams. ALso, given its price and flaghship billing, Nokia did a shameful job of underpowering the device.
THen came N900. IT was and is an amazing device, but by limiting the OS to just one phone, and later rolling it into the Meego shebang, Nokia shot itself in the foot. Here was a phone that even Engadget loved, and had all the features, just one CRIPPLING problem i.e. the horrible portrait/lanscape conundrum. To use the phone you had to click on the icon, the turn the phone to portrait and wait for the damned screen to follow you. It was a no-brainer to switch everything in N series to Maemo, keep the OS alive and kicking, and ensure enough dev support to maintain momentum vs Android, but alas it was not to be.
The 2010 phones from Nokia are relics of the past, running two/three different OSes which have not been updated in years, thus rightly earning the perception as a builder of good cheap phones.
Sorry, but after using HTC DEsire for five minutes, I realized how I had wasted my life and productivity by using/supporting Symbian and Nokia for years, invested in duds like N97, and suffered needless personal depression and headache. Somehow, you stop caring about FM Transmitters and TV Outs when you are trying to type a text and the keypad is not responding, or open two web pages and the phone slows down to a crawl.
I think the only salvation for Nokia in smartphone space is Meego and not Symbian, which should be relegated to the c-series lineup as an S40 replacement. Useful for NOkia, Symbian and consumers.
Hello - what ELSE is there in a phone? The N97, of which I am an unfortunate owner, was an unmitigated disaster. Make no mistake, Symbian was never fashionable, just functional. People bought N97 for its lovely build, form factor, and kitchen-sink specs, not to mention the 32 GB memory chip.
Guess what: 'lovely build' resulted in tarnished cameras, form factor was crippled due to a near-useless keyboard, and 32GB memory did an admirable job of bringing the phone to its knees if ever filled even halfway through. Here was a phone that seemed to be made by three different teams. ALso, given its price and flaghship billing, Nokia did a shameful job of underpowering the device.
THen came N900. IT was and is an amazing device, but by limiting the OS to just one phone, and later rolling it into the Meego shebang, Nokia shot itself in the foot. Here was a phone that even Engadget loved, and had all the features, just one CRIPPLING problem i.e. the horrible portrait/lanscape conundrum. To use the phone you had to click on the icon, the turn the phone to portrait and wait for the damned screen to follow you. It was a no-brainer to switch everything in N series to Maemo, keep the OS alive and kicking, and ensure enough dev support to maintain momentum vs Android, but alas it was not to be.
The 2010 phones from Nokia are relics of the past, running two/three different OSes which have not been updated in years, thus rightly earning the perception as a builder of good cheap phones.
Sorry, but after using HTC DEsire for five minutes, I realized how I had wasted my life and productivity by using/supporting Symbian and Nokia for years, invested in duds like N97, and suffered needless personal depression and headache. Somehow, you stop caring about FM Transmitters and TV Outs when you are trying to type a text and the keypad is not responding, or open two web pages and the phone slows down to a crawl.
I think the only salvation for Nokia in smartphone space is Meego and not Symbian, which should be relegated to the c-series lineup as an S40 replacement. Useful for NOkia, Symbian and consumers.
Rafe
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Originally Posted by Unregistered
The real problem is that Nokia and Symbian keeps beating themselves up internally.
Why bother pouring resources into Symbian^3 or Symbian^4 when Meego is coming around the corner. Why not just stabilize and simplify S60v3 and get it leaner, especially since memory and resource requirements shot up between FP1 and FP2? Why keep sending these conflicting messages to consumers and developers that make them scratch their heads? It's better to just make the one bet and focus on getting it right instead of trying to make sure two parties aren't stepping on each other. Everyone keeps harping Qt, but where is there one single productivity app built on Qt for Nokia? And one that will work with both platforms? Anything demoed? At all?!?! It all sounds vaporware-ish, like Java everywhere, but Java S60v3 apps won't work on S60v5, and vice versa. The only thing compelling I've seen from Java ME on S60 is Opera Mini. |
The message of Symbian / MeeGo from Nokia is quite clear and has been since late last year. If people ignore or can't understand what they are hearing there is only so much Nokia can do. One bet (one platform) might easier to explain to people, but that not make it the right technical solution.
Qt apps - how about the Orange Wednesday app we mentioned on the site last week, how about the Skype app? The majority of OffScreen apps (running on both the N900 and Symbian^1) are powered by Qt. This trend is going to accelerate once MeeGo and Symbian^3 are on the market . So no its not vapour and yes it does work.
I'd also say there's quite a number of good Java apps out there too.
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Originally Posted by Unregistered
They will buy what looks good to them on the day or what is offered to them at upgrade time. This increasingly applies to smartphones, with ther mp3 players, games and maps.
So the PR battle is won with the mass media advertising, not the actual perceived performance of the devices. For most, most of this stuff just doesn't matter. I have also discovered if this or that pedantic detail is missing, it's not the end of the world. Soon, within a couple of years, the smartphone market will level out and everything will need to be sold on price then style anyway. |
gadget freak
I agree anyway, UI is overated, does it work, does it work easily. the vast majority of people do not sync with their computer, do not install ovi suite etc, the vast majority haven't a clue about firmware updates, patches, rootings, flashing. Folks roll up sign their contract and expect it to work.
Apple can get away with flaws but nokia have used up their PR quota, The N8 needs to be good out the box
Apple can get away with flaws but nokia have used up their PR quota, The N8 needs to be good out the box
clonmult
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Originally Posted by gadget freak
I agree anyway, UI is overated, does it work, does it work easily. the vast majority of people do not sync with their computer, do not install ovi suite etc, the vast majority haven't a clue about firmware updates, patches, rootings, flashing. Folks roll up sign their contract and expect it to work.
Apple can get away with flaws but nokia have used up their PR quota, The N8 needs to be good out the box |
Interestingly the current claimed issues with the iPhone 4 antenna are generating more negativity on the apple forums than I would have expected, so while they've still got an incredibly strong image, their apparent perfection appears to finally be slightly tarnished.
I asked at my local Orange shop about a possible release date of the N8. Interesting comment from the member of staff - not sure they'll be getting it, as the N series "aren't compatible with the Orange software".
That shows a total lack of knowledge - they had the X6 and 5230 in there. Both are N series in all but name.
I've been pleasantly surprised by the reliability of the 5230 - its by far and away the most stable Symbian phone I've owned since the Siemens SX1. And with the comments from some of the N8 team on here and other forums, it does sound like they're fairly confident of releasing a good and reliable product.
Richard L
The UI is the single most important part of any product - phone, washing machine, car, breakfast cereal. If the user interface/experience is poor (as it absolutely, undoubtedly, definitively is for the various flavours of Symbian at present) then the product is poor. Period.
It may be a hugely capable product but if using its functionality is not easy, then there was no point in constructing it in the first place. There is absolutely no reason why users of any consumer product should expect to become expert in its use: a good consumer product design assumes that the user should in fact NOT be required to be expert at all. Amazing as it may seem to those of us who spend way too much time thinking about phones, most people have other things that concern them more and that is no bad thing.
This is what Apple understood and why Google redeveloped the then-nascent Android in the wake of the iPhone OS launching. There is no functionality in any iPhone that is original but using it is straightforward and comprehensibe to anyone, regardless of experience: that's product development genius.
Personally, I found the iPhone experience enjoyable but get more from Android and dislike Apple's closed approach. I've used almost every flavour of Symbian device - and would love to be buyign Nokia again - but they don't stack up against the competition right now (and haven't for several years) in any area except value for money (ie Nokia has amazing deals with operator re-sellers). And they don't stack up because the user experience/UI is apalling - to the point where some installed applications are so difficult to use it's not worth the effort (and don't get me started on the email client...).
The subtext of Ewan's article appears to be that all that's wrong with Symbian is bad PR - if that's what he intended, that's nonsense. What's wrong with Symbian is a fundamental dissconnect with the needs of the consumer.
He is right to say, however, that PR carries enormous weight with the consumer - about equal to the weight an in-store salesperson can bring to bear in my view. But ultimately, consumers are smarter than ever right now and no product will long survive fundamental flaws, however good its PR. That's not just true of phones, though, that's true of anything.
It may be a hugely capable product but if using its functionality is not easy, then there was no point in constructing it in the first place. There is absolutely no reason why users of any consumer product should expect to become expert in its use: a good consumer product design assumes that the user should in fact NOT be required to be expert at all. Amazing as it may seem to those of us who spend way too much time thinking about phones, most people have other things that concern them more and that is no bad thing.
This is what Apple understood and why Google redeveloped the then-nascent Android in the wake of the iPhone OS launching. There is no functionality in any iPhone that is original but using it is straightforward and comprehensibe to anyone, regardless of experience: that's product development genius.
Personally, I found the iPhone experience enjoyable but get more from Android and dislike Apple's closed approach. I've used almost every flavour of Symbian device - and would love to be buyign Nokia again - but they don't stack up against the competition right now (and haven't for several years) in any area except value for money (ie Nokia has amazing deals with operator re-sellers). And they don't stack up because the user experience/UI is apalling - to the point where some installed applications are so difficult to use it's not worth the effort (and don't get me started on the email client...).
The subtext of Ewan's article appears to be that all that's wrong with Symbian is bad PR - if that's what he intended, that's nonsense. What's wrong with Symbian is a fundamental dissconnect with the needs of the consumer.
He is right to say, however, that PR carries enormous weight with the consumer - about equal to the weight an in-store salesperson can bring to bear in my view. But ultimately, consumers are smarter than ever right now and no product will long survive fundamental flaws, however good its PR. That's not just true of phones, though, that's true of anything.
Unregistered
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Originally Posted by Rafe
MeeGo is very important to Nokia, but the suggestion that it could replace everything Symbian does is incorrect. As thing stands the hardware requirement for MeeGo are going to making it very hard for it it get on a device below $300 as a minimum (ignoring the fact Nokia are positioning it as a premium product).
The message of Symbian / MeeGo from Nokia is quite clear and has been since late last year. If people ignore or can't understand what they are hearing there is only so much Nokia can do. One bet (one platform) might easier to explain to people, but that not make it the right technical solution. Qt apps - how about the Orange Wednesday app we mentioned on the site last week, how about the Skype app? The majority of OffScreen apps (running on both the N900 and Symbian^1) are powered by Qt. This trend is going to accelerate once MeeGo and Symbian^3 are on the market . So no its not vapour and yes it does work. I'd also say there's quite a number of good Java apps out there too. It is very easy to forget this. Cost is always the most under-rated factor in many of these arguments. Style is inevitably more subjective and varies by market (look at the differing attitudes towards companies - e.g. Samsung in Europe versus Samsung in the US). |
I've never said that Symbian will disappear, just like I stressed that Symbian should just focus on tightening up S60v3. As for Offscreen, as I said - none of them ever work cross platform platform. Else I would've seen things like Level working on S60v3 platforms. And for Java stuff, I've never seen any USEFUL Java apps working on my old N95 and STILL work on my N97 - they always throw some sort of Java exception when working out of the platform it was built for on startup. I like developing on Java and have developed for 13 years now on it as well, but I know it's limitations, and UI is definitely Java's poor spot. And for Skype, why do I still need to get either the S60v3 package or S60v5 package?! Why should there be any awareness of this? After nearly a decade of touch and mobile UI development, you'd think the canvas scaling, unifying touch and key input, and other UI issues would be resolved by now, especially since there are really only two resolutions to work with in the Symbian market today.
As for cost, I understand cost is a big factor, else I would never have bought Nokia ever again (I just picked up an E72 for my wife on the REAL CHEAP, and she loves it, but she HATES S60v5, even though my N97 never crashed on her ever while she used it), but here again it proves my point - Symbian^3 is too costly of a move for Nokia to make just to make so little ground, especially since there seems to be much further progress on Meego, but S60v3 still seems to be an extremely solid platform that has lots of legs, so why make Nokia split their efforts in two? Just to satisfy the fanboys here? And Nokia's value is really on the low margin, low end market, and no one is disputing that. But it just seems like a crappy uphill battle for them - business devices are starting move beyond the RIMM/Blackberry form factor, and people with real disposable income that's willing to pay the premium is looking WAY beyond Symbian. If you look at it carefully, there's not much a difference between a really nice dumbphone and the typical E-device anymore. If you really want S60/Symbian to succeed, it's probably best that Nokia takes it in the same direction as Palm Treos - put a small touch screen against E-series devices and observe the eco-system from there. Palm Treos didn't die because of lack of fancy UI features - it died because the OS really didn't keep up with things like multitasking, multimedia support, etc. But Symbian has a real chance to fill this space still, instead everyone here keeps telling Nokia to pour everything they got into "fixing up the Symbian UI". What a waste of time!!! S60v3 UI seems to be perfectly fine at the moment. Maybe you're argument now will be that S60v5 is just an extension of S60v3, but it doesn't seem that way from my user experience - apps in s60v3 doesn't always work in s60v5.
I don't wish Symbian to die, but it just seems like A REAL WASTE OF TALENT to go into Symbian^3 and Symbian^4!!! And the fanboys here just muddy Nokia's focus even further by throwing such ridiculous red herrings at them. If you want S60 to survive, tell Nokia to focus their efforts and NOT BEAT EACH OTHER UP internally.
-Gene
Unregistered
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rafe
MeeGo is very important to Nokia, but the suggestion that it could replace everything Symbian does is incorrect. As thing stands the hardware requirement for MeeGo are going to making it very hard for it it get on a device below $300 as a minimum (ignoring the fact Nokia are positioning it as a premium product).
The message of Symbian / MeeGo from Nokia is quite clear and has been since late last year. If people ignore or can't understand what they are hearing there is only so much Nokia can do. One bet (one platform) might easier to explain to people, but that not make it the right technical solution. Qt apps - how about the Orange Wednesday app we mentioned on the site last week, how about the Skype app? The majority of OffScreen apps (running on both the N900 and Symbian^1) are powered by Qt. This trend is going to accelerate once MeeGo and Symbian^3 are on the market . So no its not vapour and yes it does work. I'd also say there's quite a number of good Java apps out there too. It is very easy to forget this. Cost is always the most under-rated factor in many of these arguments. Style is inevitably more subjective and varies by market (look at the differing attitudes towards companies - e.g. Samsung in Europe versus Samsung in the US). |
-Gene
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