Why S60's Touch demo DIDN'T suck...

[slitchfield]

To be filed under 'editorials that I was about to write but someone else beat me to it', Ricky Cadden (moonlighting over at SMS Text News) has issued a few pithy retorts to criticism that the S60 Touch demo at MWC was lame. I completely agree with your points, Ricky, I'd much rather see S60 have touch added as an extra than see a whole new iPhone-wannabe interface.

Read on in the full article.

I totally agree, and I'd like to add that I'm getting more and more bored reading iPhone guys complaining that the X new device doesn't come even near to the iPhone's neatness. I've heard this about the S60 Touch, heard the same about Android preview, and I'm so sick of it. The iPhone is not a smartphone, but a multimedia-oriented phone! Yes, it has a large touchscreen display with one of the coolest interface and whatever, but where's the point of constatly blasting devices that aren't even in the same league as the iPhone because "they are newer than the iPhone, and still they look like crap compared to it"?!? Have you ever compared a Ferrari against an Hummer for God's sake?!? "Yeah, my Ferrari is just so neat and goes as fast as a bullet!", wonder how would you be doing into the wild outskirts with your sweet Ferrari: that's simple, with a Ferrari you won't get out of the road, and with an Hummer you're not gonna win any racing championships.
That's it, I'm sorry if I've been too rude...

[neilhoskins]

Face up to it, outside the circles 'we' move in, S60 is largely derided. Personally I put up with it, but every so often I ask myself why I'm getting asked for the thousandth time which access point I want to use, and why I have to pay £20 for a decent add-on calendar, and why are realplayer streams in 'gallery' rather than 'media'. I really hope that S60 aren't putting a lot of effort into this touch business at the expense of improving the existing interface.

S60 does need to move forward quickly I agree neilhoskins. However, I find it a very nice balance between a hardware-specific OS like that on the iPhone and a totally multi-hardware OS like XP or even WM. I have often wondered how the N82 hardware and software would be in a Nokia N810 form-factor. Apart from the ultra-slow S60 browser (why?) I think it would be a far better experience. Mind you, that's not saying much.

Back to the point though, I would be happy if Nokia made their touch software an overlay UI. To be honest, I can't see them having the time to redesign all apps for touch so we're going to be in the same situation. as with the overlay on the Sony Xperia, HTC's overlay UI and Origami Experience for Vista UMPCs. It will look good but when you get to work, it will be that same old interface. Its a great marketing trick!

Apple, having a single hardware platform, were able to build a software package that was touch-friendly all the way through but I don't think that's possible with S60. It supports too many different screen and hardware configurations.

Steve. (Chippy - UMPCPortal/Carrypad)

[davidmaxwaterma]

neilhoskins wrote:
> ...f why I'm getting asked for the thousandth time which access point I want to use

I recommend trying devicescape.

Max.

[krisse]

Face up to it, outside the circles 'we' move in, S60 is largely derided.

If that's the case, why has S60 sold over 150 million phones and continues to outsell all its rivals combined?

I think you're just looking at the narrow circles of mainly American tech blogs. Step into the real world and S60 is actually selling in large numbers while the iPhone continues to just show potential.

I'm not saying I personally like all of S60's features, but what I am saying is that Nokia would be crazy to completely throw away an interface which is far, far more popular than any other smartphone interface. If they tear it up and start again from scratch, they'd be throwing away a lot of loyal customers who are used to the way S60 works.

If you want to see Nokia's take on a completely new touchscreen interface, take a look at their internet tablets.

[davidmaxwaterma]

Originally Posted by krisse

...S60... far more popular than any other smartphone interface.

Did you mean *populous*?

[krisse]

Did you mean *populous*?

Popular as in "more people buy S60 than any other smartphone". If you sell the most, then your product is the most popular.

Populous refers to the population within a certain area, rather than the number of people who choose a particular option.

At the end of the day phone makers are in the business to sell phones. The opinions of enthusiasts aren't anywhere near as significant as which phones people actually buy. It's the sales numbers that count, and you'll only see radical changes to a product if its sales slow down.

[davidmaxwaterma]

Originally Posted by krisse

Popular as in "more people buy S60 than any other smartphone". If you sell the most, then your product is the most popular.

I guess 'populous' shares a meaning with *one* of the uses of 'popular'[1], but I don't think that just because something is oft bought that people actually like it.

I recall a survey of the car owners. IINM, the Ford Escort was the most populous (1/100) and least popular (100/100). People said they bought it because it was easier to repair (others said that they prefered cars they didn't need to repair in the first place). The Toyota Corolla was 1/100 in popularity, IINM.

I think some people like to make similar comparisons with Microsoft Windows. "There really isn't a lot of choice".

But anyway...

[1] number '4' on http://www.answers.com/popular&r=67, though that references a US dictionary so isn't strictly English.

[krisse]

Originally Posted by davidmaxwaterma

I guess 'populous' shares a meaning with *one* of the uses of 'popular'[1], but I don't think that just because something is oft bought that people actually like it.

So you're saying that S60 has sold more than any other smartphone platform for the past five years despite people not liking it?

Are people being hypnotised?

Or do people just prefer S60 to the alternatives?

I recall a survey of the car owners. IINM, the Ford Escort was the most populous (1/100) and least popular (100/100).

I think you're confusing satisfaction with popularity.

People can be satisfied with all the alternatives, or dissatisfied with all the alternatives, but there will always be a particular alternative that is most popular.

Popular means how many people choose something, satisfaction means how happy an individual is with that choice after they've experienced it.

When Al Gore received more votes than anyone else in the 2000 US elections, he was said to have won "the popular vote", even though the vote didn't measure satisfaction at all.

In any case, this is all irrelevant because like I said before the only thing that counts at the end of the day is which product people actually buy. Surveys are just surveys, sales are actual money.

It's a bit like coca-cola, that's been out-selling all other colas for goodness-knows-how-long. A lot of taste tests show people prefer coke's rivals, but the one time coca-cola did try to alter their formula to be more like their rivals, it was a commercial disaster. In the end all that coke cares about is whether people buy coke, not whether they score well in taste tests.

I think some people like to make similar comparisons with Microsoft Windows. "There really isn't a lot of choice".

Not a fair comparison at all, because there's nothing locking people into using S60 in the way there is with Windows. If you don't like S60, what is stopping you buying some other kind of smartphone?

Many items of third party software simply aren't available for Mac or Linux, so people (including myself) are often forced to use Windows. This isn't the case with S60.

Most S60 owners don't buy third party software at all, and even if they do it's almost certainly available on other smartphone platforms as well, so they could very easily switch to (for example) Windows Mobile if they wanted. In fact I believe Windows Mobile actually has more third party software support than S60 (you can even get Nokia Maps on Windows Mobile).

There's no reason to buy an S60 phone other than that you want that S60 phone.


I'm not saying this makes S60 a good interface, what I am saying is that companies do things for sales and profits, and if sales and profits stay high then they will carry on doing whatever they're doing. If you want to change the way a company does things, you have to vote with your wallet.

There's due to be a new generation of games consoles appearing in a couple of years time. I bet they will all have Wii-style motion controllers because console gamers have voted with their wallets for the Wii, despite all the criticism it received from "traditional" gamers who were unhappy with its lower-tech graphics and casual gameplay.

[davidmaxwaterma]

Originally Posted by krisse

So you're saying that S60 has sold more than any other smartphone platform for the past five years despite people not liking it?

Yes, certainly in some respects. People get used to a certain way, even if they don't like it.

Are people being hypnotised?

Of course not

Or do people just prefer S60 to the alternatives?

Actually, I think most people just buy phones based on how they look and have no idea about the OS.

I think you're confusing satisfaction with popularity.

Not true, since some of the meanings of 'popularity' are to do with satisfaction. If there were a word 'satisfatority', then that might be less ambiguous than 'popularity' too; just like using the word 'populous' is less ambiguous than 'popularity' when used to mean 'more people have it'.

Never heard of a 'popularity contest'. It isn't to do with how many of a person there are, it's how many people like that person.

People can be satisfied with all the alternatives, or dissatisfied with all the alternatives, but there will always be a particular alternative that is most popular.

Popular means how many people choose something, satisfaction means how happy an individual is with that choice after they've experienced it.

I already said that isn't the only meaning of 'popular'. The other meanings make it at least ambiguous. 'Populous' makes it accurate.

Unless you can show me anything other than statistics to show that people actually like what they've bought....a satisfaction survey

When Al Gore received more votes than anyone else in the 2000 US elections, he was said to have won "the popular vote".

Isn't that American? I guess that may be the most populous version of English (when used as a 1st language), but not necessarily the most popular.

Not a fair comparison at all, because there's nothing locking people into using S60 in the way there is with Windows.

Well, it's not as bad, for sure, but it's definitely similar (IMO).

Most S60 owners don't buy third party software, and even if they do it's almost certainly available on other smartphone platforms as well.
There's no reason to buy an S60 phone other than that you want that S60 phone.

Well, I disagree (somewhat), but I don't care to belabour the point any further. We clearly have a disagreement over the definition of a particular word. Not really that important...

[Terry1100]

Fair enough, comparisons with iPhone are inevitable these days - but shouldn't the comparison be with UIQ - that's touchscreen Symbian already.

[krisse]

Well, it's not as bad, for sure, but it's definitely similar (IMO).

What, exactly, locks people into using S60 instead of Windows Mobile, or Linux, or the iPhone?

I don't think there's anything to stop you changing from S60 to another kind of smartphone.

Not true, since some of the meanings of 'popularity' are to do with satisfaction. If there were a word 'satisfatority', then that might be less ambiguous than 'popularity' too; just like using the word 'populous' is less ambiguous than 'popularity' when used to mean 'more people have it'.

I really really really don't want to get into an argument over this because it's an argument over langauge, not smartphones. Let's get back to smartphones.

Let me put this in an unambiguous way: S60 phones sell more than all other smartphones, and the market share of S60 phones is actually higher than Nokia's market share as a whole. (Nokia has 40% of the general phone market, and 50% of the smartphone market.)

In other words, S60 phones are selling really really well. No smartphone platform has ever sold as well as this, and perhaps no smartphone platform will ever sell as well as this. In sales terms, this might be as good as it gets for a smartphone manufacturer.

If that situation stays the same for year after year, which has been the case so far, there's not really any incentive for Nokia to make radical changes to S60.

Opinion pieces seem to very rarely acknowledge this, and I think the problem is particularly bad in America because S60 phones don't sell well there, so American bloggers/journalists forget how well S60 phones sell globally.

[neilhoskins]

Originally Posted by davidmaxwaterma

neilhoskins wrote:
> ...f why I'm getting asked for the thousandth time which access point I want to use

I recommend trying devicescape.

Max.

Thanks. Looks good, tried it, doesn't work: keeps crashing. I'm no programmer, but I know the required technology is possible. The tiny Truphone app simply has a priority list of connections that it can use, and above a certain line in the list it will connect automatically. If it has trouble connecting, it surmises there may be a problem with that AP and offers to move it down the priority list for you. It's simple, intuitive, and reliable.

Just to throw my tuppence-worth into the above debate, I think that S60 smartphones have sold so well despite the shortcomings of S60, rather than because S60 is so good. There's also the factor that the layout makes some kind of sense to people who are already used to S40. S60 has some brilliant features that are, incredibly, lacking in other OSs, like pressing and holding the menu key for a task list, for example. But having PIM apps that aren't as good as the native ones in my old Psion really grates. Yes, Steve, I know your views on this, but surely smartphones should by now have the same functionality that we had in our organisers all those years ago.

[neilhoskins]

Originally Posted by Terry1100

Fair enough, comparisons with iPhone are inevitable these days - but shouldn't the comparison be with UIQ - that's touchscreen Symbian already.

Quite. When the UIs were originally split (was it 'pearl' and 'oyster' or some bloody thing?) they were intended to be complimentary, not competitive. If Nokia want to sell touch-screen phones, why not put UIQ on them?