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  #61  
Old 19-06-2010, 11:17 AM
bchliu bchliu is offline
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Originally Posted by slitchfield View Post
Apart from concerns over the way RAM is used on the Desire, Symbian's full multitasking is run close by Android - but the latter only lets you switch back to one of 6 recently run apps - Symbian OS shows you *everything* that's running. That's enough to swing it for me. The iPhone 4 does NOT have proper multitasking. And you can't go by processor speed.



How is this relevant? Symbian OS needs a lot less RAM than OS X.



I made them joint winners here. The N8 gets a nod because the sensor is much larger and because it has intelligent digital zoom. And better Audio capture, I suspect.



Oh, don't talk rot. 8-)

Steve
Thanks for the response Steve.. I usually hate to troll through these discussions, but I cant resist..

You simply cannot ditch the processor speed differences and will definitely show when rendering something as simple as a webpage. You notice this already significantly on an N900 between the standard clock of 600Mhz and 1Ghz. The N900 benefits so much from the overclocking that the majority of users have it permanently overclocked to give them benefits in Emulation, video playback to smoother multitasking. That is an absolute major benefit as far as I can see.

Symbian does not show *everything* as you have implied - but only the tasks that show up as foreground apps. You have to use a third party task manager like JBTaskman before you can access the "everything". The other platforms also can get third party task managers to achieve exactly the same things.

You are only speculating that iOS 4 uses more memory than Symbian^3. Even if it does (by a small amount), the doubling of the memory will still have the iphone ahead of N8 in terms of usable memory. This means more information can be loaded in and less storage access - for better looking games with higher resolution textures.

Lastly, the "rot" - how many N97 users out there had OTA'ed their firmware and ended up finding random problems with it? I can remember quite a significant amount of complaints that came through and the people ended up doing a proper cable update (AND cleaning their flash storage as well) to fix things up. Given Nokia's history, that will only repeat itself.

I am starting to sound like a miserable and unsatisified customer now (despite being an N900 + Vivaz + ex-N97/N95/N80 user)... but I really cannot agree with this comparison. I would HIGHLY suggest that you revisit this same review upon the full release of the final hardware of both N8 and Iphone 4G and reassess then. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong if the N8 is indeed Nokia's Jesus phone to save their Smartphone reputation.

  #62  
Old 19-06-2010, 12:14 PM
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jb8967 jb8967 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clonmult View Post
You're comparing apples to oranges.

Android *needs* more memory than Symbian. That Symbian devices can happily work with less ram (ie. N95 with 64mb, N95 8gig with 128mb, 5230/etc with 128mb) is a well known fact, and that the N8 doubling that is definitely plenty.

Nope, Nokia haven't (so far) given major OS updates, but they have added a lot of features - A2DP added to the N73, N86 got face recognition, 5230/5800 got full kinetic scrolling.

Oh, and how can you say the desire is faster than all the other devices when you haven't tried them
Nokia created its own nightmare on the subject of RAM by starving its N97 flagship for this resource. It has become a negative point for Nokia now to defend on the basis of some techie and nebulous argument about the efficiencies of Symbian. Give me a break. The average user could care less and now the headline reads...N8 has half the RAM of the iPhone 4. If the marketing people at Nokia had half a brain with which to consider this self made catch 22...they would have already resigned in self disgust.

  #63  
Old 19-06-2010, 02:12 PM
bchliu bchliu is offline
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Nokia hasnt learnt their lesson, and at the end of the day, they are only interested in the profit margins - cutting back here and there like RAM and CPU type will save substantial costs. My guess is (with the N97) that was a late decision driven by their management board.

I could have sworn the N97 FCC prototype had a TI OMAP chip on it (from looking at the publically available information).. and the final production version didnt..
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  #64  
Old 19-06-2010, 10:25 PM
hduty hduty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchliu View Post
Symbian does not show *everything* as you have implied - but only the tasks that show up as foreground apps. You have to use a third party task manager like JBTaskman before you can access the "everything". The other platforms also can get third party task managers to achieve exactly the same things.
Steve is talking about running applications, while you talk about system processes/threads, which is irrelevant in this discussion (thankfully neither Symbian nor Android displays all running processes in the list of running apps).

Android only shows a maximum of 6 apps in its task manager (=the popup list when you press and hold the home key), while Symbian doesn't have a limit in the number of apps it will display in the task manager.

  #65  
Old 19-06-2010, 11:04 PM
froschy
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Originally Posted by bchliu View Post
Thanks for the response Steve.. I usually hate to troll through these discussions, but I cant resist..

You simply cannot ditch the processor speed differences and will definitely show when rendering something as simple as a webpage. You notice this already significantly on an N900 between the standard clock of 600Mhz and 1Ghz. The N900 benefits so much from the overclocking that the majority of users have it permanently overclocked to give them benefits in Emulation, video playback to smoother multitasking. That is an absolute major benefit as far as I can see.

Symbian does not show *everything* as you have implied - but only the tasks that show up as foreground apps. You have to use a third party task manager like JBTaskman before you can access the "everything". The other platforms also can get third party task managers to achieve exactly the same things.

You are only speculating that iOS 4 uses more memory than Symbian^3. Even if it does (by a small amount), the doubling of the memory will still have the iphone ahead of N8 in terms of usable memory. This means more information can be loaded in and less storage access - for better looking games with higher resolution textures.

Lastly, the "rot" - how many N97 users out there had OTA'ed their firmware and ended up finding random problems with it? I can remember quite a significant amount of complaints that came through and the people ended up doing a proper cable update (AND cleaning their flash storage as well) to fix things up. Given Nokia's history, that will only repeat itself.

I am starting to sound like a miserable and unsatisified customer now (despite being an N900 + Vivaz + ex-N97/N95/N80 user)... but I really cannot agree with this comparison. I would HIGHLY suggest that you revisit this same review upon the full release of the final hardware of both N8 and Iphone 4G and reassess then. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong if the N8 is indeed Nokia's Jesus phone to save their Smartphone reputation.
Agreed and in relation to the RAM I can't help thinking that the N97 would have been a completely different beast had Nokia doubled it, maybe even a win for the company instead of the ongoing debacle that it is. If there was one lesson they should have taken from the N97 it was that skimping on the hardware has a very small short term cost gain but can result in very long term PR problem. I just hope the low specs on the N8 don't come back to bite them.

  #66  
Old 20-06-2010, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by froschy View Post
@ Unregistered (if that's really your name! Jks, lol) - My point still stands that as with my other examples, awarding the N8 the win based on mp is subjective and anyway even if the sensor is bigger I would be surprised if it's bigger than the sensor in a dedicated compact camera like the latest flagship Canon IXUS which has 10mp sensor because Canon have realized that mp aren't everything when it comes to image quality and trying to cram more and more on a sensor results in digital noise.
I just thought that it might be valuable to point out that the sensor in the N8 is a 1/1.83" sensor. That isn't just large for point-and-shoot standards, it's actually bigger than most point-and-shoots. Compare it to the 1/2.33" sensor in my Panasonic FZ28, for example. The IXUS 300 uses a 1/2.33" sensor as well so Nokia is clearly going all-out with the sensor here. It's unheard of - totally revolutionary for a phone. Nokia is absolutely NOT cramming megapixels into the N8 here, but rather delivering a true photographic experience. Insofar as point-and-shoots are concerned, as far as I know only the Canon G10/G11 have larger sensors and even then not by much as they're 1/1.7"

Of course the lens becomes the critical component on the N8 now that the matter of the sensor is taken care of so decisively. Even though it's a Zeiss and it's likely better than anything on any other phone in existence, it's still nothing next to a quality point-and-shoot. You can see from the widely-circulated N8 sample images that the image quality is exceptional near the center of the field of view but that it softens substantially towards the edges. The color reproduction and depth of field are excellent, though.

Combined with the Xenon, I think that the N8 is the first phone that could truly replace the need to carry around a cheap point-and-shoot camera. Clearly a point-and-shoot will be more versatile, but with something like the N8 in your pocket I think it likely becomes mostly redundant. It would only be needed in a few scenarios whereas the N8 would be totally satisfactory for most types of fun on the go pics.

  #67  
Old 21-06-2010, 04:18 PM
Jejoma Jejoma is offline
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
That's not really true. There is a HUGE difference between a FW update which fixes bugs and adds limited extra functionality
But that is what Apple has been doing. Each year they have added something that should have been in the original release - Having previously said it was not needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
If Nokia applied the same logic as Apple, older phones would be upgradeable to later versions of Symbian, which has NEVER happened as far as I am aware. This may well negatively influence people considering the N8 as their next phone but who may prefer to wait until Symbian^4 is released.
Symbian ^4 is a full OS upgrade and as such cannot go backwards because the spec of older phones could not run it. Just as iPhone OS 4 cannot go back to the series 1 and I believe series 2 phones. Even then it is not a new OS. It is just the original one with a few more dramatic additions such as folders (Whatever will Apple think of next).

In addition Nokia's firmware updates can come every few months rather than having to wait for a full year to sort out a problem as with Apple.

  #68  
Old 28-06-2010, 01:58 PM
chippysteve chippysteve is offline
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I just thought that it might be valuable to point out that the sensor in the N8 is a 1/1.83" sensor. ....... as far as I know only the Canon G10/G11 have larger sensors and even then not by much as they're 1/1.7"
That's significantly significant in my opinion! I hadn't realized the difference was literally that big.
I have no doubt that the N8 will produce significantly better photos than all competitors at the moment. At least until the lens gets scratched!

As for the speed/cpu. The Desire is fast fast fast all-round, it beats the 3GS in UI and most app operations. The A4 CPU on the iPhone 4 is even more powerful than that and although the UI of the N8 might be slick, try opening some heavy web pages. In fact, with the controlled multitasking on the iPhone 4, most users will get the fastest experience all-round. The N8 is going to suffer, especially if it's multi-tasking a few other apps at the same time.
ARM11 CPU, despite all the possible UI and built-in app optimisations, is my biggest worry on the N8.

Steve / Chippy.

Last edited by chippysteve; 28-06-2010 at 02:00 PM. Reason: quote

  #69  
Old 23-07-2010, 10:36 AM
DChinu DChinu is offline
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@steve writing aid in N8 ?

@steve is there even a writing aid support on N8. you write yes in your comparison, what is it i want to know

  #70  
Old 24-07-2010, 07:24 AM
slitchfield slitchfield is offline
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Yes, it seemed to work well. Not sure if it's a bought in solution or not though. Will have to wait til it's in my sweaty hands!
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  #71  
Old 11-08-2010, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by slitchfield View Post
"Android 2.2 is being distributed OTA"

Nope. Not on the HTC Desire. You're thinking of the Nexus One etc. HTC replace the whole ROM and wipe the device for major version updates.

"I would not say that iPhone 4 has "on-board video editing"

As I understand it, there's basic merge/cut editing built-in. And iMovie in the store if you want more.
yes the 2.2 update is OTA on the desire and all updates are OTA on ALL android phones

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