All About Symbian - Nokia (S60) and Sony Ericsson (UIQ) smartphones unwrapped

  #1  
Old 05-11-2004, 10:22 AM
duchski duchski is offline
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Thumbs down Goodbye Nokia, welcome MS Smartphone - NOT A FLAME WAR

That's it. I am giving up on Nokia. The next noteworthy release, 6670, will not have stereo support and my current 6620 is a dud

1) too big and too heavy
2) poor battery life
3) BT incompatible with most BT PC cards
4) voice dialing does not work (or works sometimes)
5) does not synchronize well with MS Outlook
6) pop-port connectivity source of constatnt static on stereo headphones
7) very slow PC connectivity (serial-to-USB interface)
8) idle/start screen a total waste, as no TODAY page

My next phone is Orange SPV C500/Audiovox SMT5600 Microsoft Smartphone (Windows CE Smartphone Edition)

Specs and reviews:

SPV C500 dim: 46x108x16.3mm at just 100g screen size 176 x 220 lines @ $199
ZD Net Review Orange SPV C500

Nokia 6600/6620 dim: 58.2x108.6x23.7mm at 122g screen size: 176 x 208 lines @ $299
ZD Net Review Nokia 6600

Smartphone is lighter and smaller and has a larger screen, faster CPU, stereo MP3 and AAC playback out-of-the-box (Windows Media Player 10), more internal memory (32MB) and a REAL USB interface to PC (FAST!)......
It operates on Windows CE Smartphone Edition with a real registry to edit and customize..

Check it out...

PS Voice dialing works like a charm and battery life is like on my old 6310...
three days on a single charge, I love my new Nok... hm, Smartphone...

Prices by AT&T Wireless (US)

Last edited by duchski; 10-11-2004 at 04:59 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-11-2004, 04:25 PM
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I am giving up. There is a new Microsoft Smartphone Audiovox SMT5600 (c500 in Europe) that has everything that Nokia is missing:
good design, size, strong battery (over 1000mAh), Stereo and it Windows CE Smartphone
Design....well that is personal,isn't it?Microsoft Smartphones need those bigger capacity batteries since Windows Mobile has a lot larger footprint then Symbian OS and need a faster processor for basic Smartphone operations.The faster processor drains more power from the battery thus it needs a higher capacity battery.

I agree with you on the counts of size,stereo output and i REALLY agree with you on the count price but i really don't see having Windows Mobile on my phone as an advantage.

You should have tried Symbian OS products from alternative manufacturers but Nokia,like the Siemens SX1 or the Sendo X.

Anyways,hope to see you again in the forums.
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Last edited by GhostDog; 05-11-2004 at 04:29 PM.

  #3  
Old 05-11-2004, 05:54 PM
duchski duchski is offline
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostDog
Design....well that is personal,isn't it?Microsoft Smartphones need those bigger capacity batteries since Windows Mobile has a lot larger footprint then Symbian OS and need a faster processor for basic Smartphone operations.The faster processor drains more power from the battery thus it needs a higher capacity battery.

I agree with you on the counts of size,stereo output and i REALLY agree with you on the count price but i really don't see having Windows Mobile on my phone as an advantage.

You should have tried Symbian OS products from alternative manufacturers but Nokia,like the Siemens SX1 or the Sendo X.

Anyways,hope to see you again in the forums.

Ghostdog,


I am not big fan of MS, nobody is . My favorite phone was Siemens S55(S56) because I could change the T9 dictionary and almost anything on the phone using just a hex editor. I also like Nokias because Nokia was was my first cell phone. But Nokias used to be better, they used to be innovative, cutting edge... These days are gone. Nowadays Nokia in desperate attempt to regain market share is spitting out "unfished", in my opinion products, ones that are lacking critical features but offer doubtul easthetic advantages (3650 and the latest releases or are just outright bulky like 6600/6620). Nokia is run like a sweathop, like they are not sure where they are going... Less number of new phones, more thought - this would be my advice to Nokia marketing crowd..

MS Smartphone 2003 offers Windows CE which translates into great interoperability with MS desktop products (sure we know why... but still)and a plethora of applications... On the other hand Nokia's syncing app simply sucks and you know it, even my Siemens S56 had a beetter one (xtndPC). Nokia's Bluetooth implementation is just plain terrible. Connectivity to PC via psedo "USB" - incredibely slow. MS phone has a "real" USB interface to the phone so transferring data is an easy and quick task. Battery life beats Nokia 6620 hands down... (verified) And all of this based on my experience with presumably BEST Symbian implementation i.e. Nokia 6620 with OS 7.0S...

It is nothing personal, we should not get stuck with a brand or OS becaue "we like it", it is not a matter of feelings or a sentiment, just cold calculation. Before you asnwer please take a good look at a 2003 Smartphone, check the user interface, availabale applications... It is NOT designed to be a gaming console but a business-oriented machine with some entertainment capabilities...

I understand Nokia's staff does not read this forum so I am preaching to the wrong crowd but I can't understant what NOKIA's marketing folks are doing during their business hours, 'cause their are getting awfully behind the pack on almost every aspect...

I ma not saying I won't be back. I am not getting married to M$, I just want to give Symbian and Nokia a chance, and an incentive, to get better...

BTW. Sound quality on NOKIA 6620 is much better than on MS Smartphone Audiovox 5600 (known in Europe as Orange SPV 500)

  #4  
Old 06-11-2004, 12:17 AM
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If you were looking for a business-oriented machine you should have waited for the 9300/9500.Like i said Symbian is not just Nokia,there are alternative,maybe a UIQ device like the SE P910 or the Moto A1000 would've suited you,the 6620 is not really the latest thing you know

BTW:I can assure you that people from Nokia and other major Symbian phone manufacturers regularly visit this website.
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  #5  
Old 06-11-2004, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostDog
If you were looking for a business-oriented machine you should have waited for the 9300/9500.Like i said Symbian is not just Nokia,there are alternative,maybe a UIQ device like the SE P910 or the Moto A1000 would've suited you,the 6620 is not really the latest thing you know

BTW:I can assure you that people from Nokia and other major Symbian phone manufacturers regularly visit this website.

Well, I am not sure. I thought Symbian on Nokia 6620 was the cutting edge 7.0 Symbian OS... At least at the time of its release there was no higher version on any phone. It was not a cheap phone either, with all the discounts I paid almost $300... which is a lot of money for a phone, right?

If NOKIA's people are visiting this site those are definetely not the folks from marketing. If they were we wouldn't see so many disappointments coming out of Nokia factories. 7610 with no stereo? no IR? No fast syncing with desktop? (USB) Why is 6600/6620 so big and heavy? Why designs such as 3650 are allowed to make it through the factory gate??? Why Nokia Suite and its BT implemention is so bad??? Do you know how much time I spent trying to set BT up only to discover that Nokia supports only specific brands, especially the one that they sold their business to and which makes $100+ BT cards????

It is ridiculus. No brains. Look at MS strategy: Windows Mobile in two flavors: 1) Palm-like PDAs with phone functionality - Windows CE (TREO) 2) Phone with PDA-like functionality Windows Mobile CE Smartphone Edition... They covered all the bases at once!!!

Whatever you say about MS you have admire their marketing skills and understanding of the market. And NOKIA? Overpriced behemoth like Communicator, too big for a phone and less PDA fucntionality than Palm or WinCE device... (look at treo's for example....).. Who is going to buy it???? It is already obsolete given everything that is out there already on the MS side....

I wish NOKIA the best but with these marketing geniuses at helm no wonder they loose market share on the phone side and cannot gain any on the PDA (Communicator) side. Well, they had some success with a gaming console with a phone i.e. ngage but how many PHONES WITH SERVICE you can sell to 10-18 years old?

Nokia could have a BIG success with 7610 but they CHOSE otherwise, they could make inrodes into the ever growing MP3 player market and already huge digital camera market.... They chose not too: no STEREO support, no support for external FLASH....

How do they manage to make so many mistakes???? And once again, I am not talking about the engineers, they are obviously good but about people who make marketing decisions such as feature sets or pricing.

I just bought Audiovox 5600 for $199 that has more features out of the box than 6620. In UK, Orange is giving them out to users for free as SPV C500. Why are they so cheap? Because the company that designed them (HTC Taiwan) sold the concept and manufacturing to at least 4 different companies.....
Talking about R&D csot effectiveness here.....

I do not know what is wrong with Nokia. It is not just ONE phone but they screw every and each time... They decided to market to kids who care about exchangable covers even though this is not where historically NOKIA's strength lies... Innovation and ergonomics were the drivers before... Instea they make 50 diffrent modles that differ in... plastic covers.

I could go on and on about what I found wrong with 6620 and given that 6600 has even less features it must be much worse.... I was hoping 6750 would be a better version of 7610 (STEREO) but no...Suprise, suprise....

Get an Orane SPV C500 in your hands and play with it for 15 minutes.. You will see the difference......

NOKIA's folks: get off of whatever you are smoking and get back to the drawing board....

Last edited by duchski; 06-11-2004 at 01:20 AM.

  #6  
Old 06-11-2004, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duchski
Overpriced behemoth like Communicator, too big for a phone and less PDA fucntionality than Palm or WinCE device... (look at treo's for example....).. Who is going to buy it???? It is already obsolete given everything that is out there already on the MS side....
I'm going to buy it. And trust me I'm not the only one. It certainly has no less PDA functionality than Palm or Windows Mobile, on the contrary. No current or announced MS or Palm smartphone can match the screen resolution of the Communicator range. It also has all the necessary PIM stuff built-in, as well as Word, Excel and powerpoint editors. Not to mention that it is a much more capable phone than Palm or MS smartphones will ever be. The 9500 might be on the larger side for some, but the 9300 is the size of a Nokia 6310.

I'm sure many of us would sympathise on your strong feelings about Nokia leaving out Stereo sound output in so many of their S60 phones. But no matter what you and I may think, Nokia knows what they are doing. Phones like the 7610 will sell very well, on the contrary of what you may think.

Like GhostDog mentioned, there are many alternatives to the 6620. No need to step over to the "dark side".
If you like small S60 phones with Stereo sound output of the Nokia brand, then what about the 6630?
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Last edited by Raven; 06-11-2004 at 02:22 AM.

  #7  
Old 06-11-2004, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven
I'm going to buy it. And trust me I'm not the only one. It certainly has no less PDA functionality than Palm or Windows Mobile, on the contrary. No current or announced MS or Palm smartphone can match the screen resolution of the Communicator range. It also has all the necessary PIM stuff built-in, as well as Word, Excel and powerpoint editors. Not to mention that it is a much more capable phone than Palm or MS smartphones will ever be. The 9500 might be on the larger side for some, but the 9300 is the size of a Nokia 6310.
Hey c'mon. You cannot compare Nokia to WinCE HP Journada which is pretty much a pint size PC with support for most of Windows apps...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven

I'm sure many of us would sympathise on your strong feelings about Nokia leaving out Stereo sound output in so many of their S60 phones. But no matter what you and I may think, Nokia knows what they are doing. Phones like the 7610 will sell very well, on the contrary of what you may think.
They do? Maybe. But Nokia could make 7610 much better just by adding a Stereo support to it... Why did they miss it? Why did they make 66X0 so bulky?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven

Like GhostDog mentioned, there are many alternatives to the 6620. No need to step over to the "dark side".
If you like small S60 phones with Stereo sound output of the Nokia brand, then what about the 6630?
Like what? There is no other Stereo Symbian Nokia that I know of....

Well... I have to step over to the dark side. Nokia has dissapointed me. And this sentiment is mirrored worldwide if you follow current market share data: Nokia is loosing ground....

Check out Orange SPV C500, you may be surprised with what this very small phone can do. I was. To such an extent that I am getting rid of my two months old 6620.....

Honestly, check it out before you judge the Smartphone...

  #8  
Old 06-11-2004, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duchski
Hey c'mon. You cannot compare Nokia to WinCE HP Journada which is pretty much a pint size PC with support for most of Windows apps...
Look, even though there are more available apps for Windows Mobile, doesn't make it the better PDA. The Communicators are in a whole other league and can be used for some real work. Those Windows Mobile devices are more comparable to Nokia 7710. Even then the Nokia is superior with a 640x320 screen resolution, excellent UI and tons of features.

Basically, the MS phones have 3rd party software going for them. And no wonder, WinCE has been around for ages with dozens of devices running it. Series 80 are only run by 92xx(i) which is 3 years old already. So currently there are only about 500 apps available for it, but with the release of 9500 and 9300 those numbers are expected to increase significantly. And there is also the question of just how many task managers etc. you really need. Lets say you have 3 different versions of an app for Symbian and 30 versions for PPC with the major difference only being the looks. Yes, choice is a good thing, but how much do you really need? And when does it start getting confusing?


Quote:
They do? Maybe. But Nokia could make 7610 much better just by adding a Stereo support to it... Why did they miss it? Why did they make 66X0 so bulky?
Nokia know their markets. How do you think they became the market leader? And how do you think they've managed to hold that position for so many years?


Quote:
Like what? There is no other Stereo Symbian Nokia that I know of....
Like I mentioned, the 6630 has stereo support. The N-Gage also has stereo MP3/AAC music playback. The Communicators (9500 and 9300) have stereo support (I think, not confirmed). The 7710 has stereo support.


Quote:
Well... I have to step over to the dark side. Nokia has dissapointed me. And this sentiment is mirrored worldwide if you follow current market share data: Nokia is loosing ground....
Based on what reports? Nokia is still the supreme market leader. When Nokia start loosing some ground, what do they do? Yes, they come back even stronger by pumping out more phones. Nokia is a strong, innovative company, that's why they are still the market leader.


Quote:
Check out Orange SPV C500, you may be surprised with what this very small phone can do.
I'm glad you've found something that suits your needs.
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Last edited by Raven; 06-11-2004 at 01:15 PM.

  #9  
Old 06-11-2004, 05:51 PM
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Hey c'mon. You cannot compare Nokia to WinCE HP Journada which is pretty much a pint size PC with support for most of Windows apps...
The old HP Jornada only runs Windows CE apps written for Windows CE Handheld. It will not run any Windows 1.x/2.x/3.x apps. It will not run any Windows 95/98/ME apps. It will not run any Windows NT apps. It will not run any Windows 2000 apps. It will not run any Windows XP apps. It will not run any Windows Mobile for Smartphones apps. And no Jornada can be used to make phone calls, as far as I know. Also, they're not made any more either.

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Old 06-11-2004, 06:59 PM
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Right, he meant the Journada 720 etc... Like N/A mentioned, those devices aren't classified as Pocket PCs or PDAs, but Handheld PCs. They were discontinued years ago. In fact I actually owned a Journada 720, and while it had a great keyboard, it was far too huge to fit in any pocket. And again, like N/A said, there was hardly any apps for it. It was also initially priced way too high for the average consumer. Which, in conjunction with its size, I believe was the reason for HP to discontinue the series.

Btw, N/A, do you know for sure whether or not the 9500 and 9300 have stereo sound output?
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  #11  
Old 06-11-2004, 07:59 PM
duchski duchski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven
Look, even though there are more available apps for Windows Mobile, doesn't make it the better PDA. The Communicators are in a whole other league and can be used for some real work.
Those Windows Mobile devices are more comparable to Nokia 7710. Even then the Nokia is superior with a 640x320 screen resolution, excellent UI and tons of features.

Buddy, you bought into Nokia's marketing hype, there are no TONS of features and Communicator is too big to be called a phone. It is a PDA with phone capabilities and a very poor at that. Nowehere near what is offered by Palm or WinCE based PDAs. There is already huge PDA market in the US and with current pricisng Nokia is not going to win many sales here.......

On other Nokias: they lack features, have major design flaws (mine 6620 is so wide it is difficult to press some buttons (call, task) and 6630 is no better) and most improtanlty are overpriced. I am glad Nokia is being beaten up by the Oriental tigers (LG, Samsung, NEC) maybe it will force them to think about the future (although still a leader in sales every year Nokia is loosing its market share )

I hope you will enjoy your communicator but before you but it look around...


PS I have no Idea whether Communicator has Stereo, it is hard to say since "business oriented" 6750 has not... Who knows what Nokia was thinking of designing Communicator.... The phone is so widely publicized that is going to be outdated when it is finally released here

Last edited by duchski; 06-11-2004 at 08:02 PM.

  #12  
Old 06-11-2004, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N/A
The old HP Jornada only runs Windows CE apps written for Windows CE Handheld. It will not run any Windows 1.x/2.x/3.x apps. It will not run any Windows 95/98/ME apps. It will not run any Windows NT apps. It will not run any Windows 2000 apps. It will not run any Windows XP apps. It will not run any Windows Mobile for Smartphones apps. And no Jornada can be used to make phone calls, as far as I know. Also, they're not made any more either.

But most of the Desktop apps were already ported to WinCe so you have a familiar interface and compatibility.... Have you been to any computer store lately? it is full of WinCE devices, with and without phone capabalities... Every major PC maker has one out there........
This thread is about why any of current Nokia offerings is UNACCEPTABLE not why PC makers are replacing old models with new ones....

  #13  
Old 06-11-2004, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by duchski
Buddy, you bought into Nokia's marketing hype, there are no TONS of features and Communicator is too big to be called a phone. It is a PDA with phone capabilities and a very poor at that. Nowehere near what is offered by Palm or WinCE based PDAs. There is already huge PDA market in the US and with current pricisng Nokia is not going to win many sales here.......
This discussion is getting tedious because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You need to do some serious research, mate.

Nokia is not going to win many sales in the US? -No sh!t. -Who cares. The North American market is not that important. If I were to make some generalisations I'd say that Americans usually wont look twice at a cell phone unless they can get it for free on a cheap contract.

Palm and MS phones are selling rather well in the US though, but they're hardly selling at all in Europe and Asia. And the other way around - Symbian phones are selling like hot cakes in Europe and Asia, but not in the North American market. In the 3rd quarter of this year 3,732,030 Symbian devices were shipped world wide, which is 50.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. Now compare that with 1,503,950 Microsoft devices shipped during the same period, which is only 20.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. (source: http://www.canalys.com/pr/2004/r2004102.htm).
Do you now see that there is a huge market beyond the North American borders?

I recently read a report which stated that PalmOne (PalmSource has 16.9% market share) have shipped 1 million Treo 600 units worldwide. Do you know how many of those were sold in the US alone? -80%. This can be compared to Sony Ericsson's shipment of the P900, where the ratio would be the other way around of course. So, as we all know (or should know ), the P900 is far superior to the Treo - hence Europeans are the more intelligent consumers.

Another generalisation from me would be that Americans like their things labeled "Made in America". That's probably why they keep buying Microsoft products and Motorola phones. Both of which, to me, are absolute cr@p.


Quote:
I hope you will enjoy your communicator but before you but it look around...
Believe me I know what's out there.


Quote:
Who knows what Nokia was thinking of designing Communicator.... The phone is so widely publicized that is going to be outdated when it is finally released here
Outdated? Compared to what?
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Old 06-11-2004, 11:03 PM
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Nobody seems to listen to my arguments around here, but I'll add my 2c anyways..

Until a Symbian device is shipped with seamless support for integration into a windows server business environment, Symbian is destined to become the Commodore of the 90s.

Yes Nokia/Symbian hold a huge marketshare, but they have not been in the same market as Microsoft until now, and we are seeing a steady increase in the market share of MS devices.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Symbian phones, but I also passionately loved my Amiga. Symbian/Nokia desperately need to capture the higher end business user market which is currently just developing right now. And right now, businesses are NOT purchasing symbian phones - they're purchasing MS phones because they're cheap, they're far easier to integrate, and the UI is familiar to users. The business market will be where this war is won/lost. Nokia know the cellular phone market, but they are relative newcomers to the mobile computer game, and Microsoft have years of knowledge and establishment.

Nokia have also made a huge mistake in limiting the compatibility of Ngage games to just the ngage platform. Sure if they were to open it up so all symbian devices could play the games, other manufacturers would be able to ride the wave, but that's what licensing is for! At least if they had a wide userbase of games users, they would be guaranteed a stranglehold of the youth market for a good while yet.
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Old 07-11-2004, 03:23 AM
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Thumbs down Let's finish it...

Quote:
This discussion is getting tedious because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You need to do some serious research, mate.

Nokia is not going to win many sales in the US? -No sh!t. -Who cares. The North American market is not that important. ....
Wow, wow wow tiger... I do not know one global company that would say that the North American market is not important...

Quote:
If I were to make some generalisations I'd say that Americans usually wont look twice at a cell phone unless they can get it for free on a cheap contract.
But of course. We are demanding. You should learn to do the same. Unless you LIKE keep paying too much for too little...

Quote:
Palm and MS phones are selling rather well in the US though, but they're hardly selling at all in Europe and Asia.
Pretty much everything that is happening in the world of computing has been happening here, in the US. Not in Europe or Asia. I am not suprised. However, Ornage is making a bundle on Smartphone sales - they sell it as Orange SPV 500... Check their website...

Quote:
And the other way around - Symbian phones are selling like hot cakes in Europe and Asia, but not in the North American market. In the 3rd quarter of this year 3,732,030 Symbian devices were shipped world wide, which is 50.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. Now compare that with 1,503,950 Microsoft devices shipped during the same period, which is only 20.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. (source: http://www.canalys.com/pr/2004/r2004102.htm).
Do you now see that there is a huge market beyond the North American borders?
Well of course there is. Keep in mind that MS phones are around for what? 2 or 3 years? 20% of sales is not bad considering that Smartphones are not cheap and aimed at specific user... Not bad at all... And as far as SYmbian phones are concerned... I had one 6620 Better then any Series 60 phone sold in Europe because equiped with EDGE and Stereo sound, and what? You can't even properly sync it with major messaging software i.e. MS Outlook... so much for a "business" appliance....
But I guess you can play games on it and put a nice app that will show the time in any place in the world.. WOW what an achievement...

Quote:
I recently read a report which stated that PalmOne (PalmSource has 16.9% market share) have shipped 1 million Treo 600 units worldwide. Do you know how many of those were sold in the US alone? -80%. This can be compared to Sony Ericsson's shipment of the P900, where the ratio would be the other way around of course. So, as we all know (or should know ), the P900 is far superior to the Treo - hence Europeans are the more intelligent consumers.
Of course you are. Keep in mind that MS, Cray, Intel, Apple, Palm, Sun, IBM, HP are all American companies... You follow? Are you suprised Americans demand value and innovation rather than portable gaming consoles with exchangeable covers? That was always the case that Europe and Asia followed American lead in computing not the other way around...

Quote:
Another generalisation from me would be that Americans like their things labeled "Made in America". That's probably why they keep buying Microsoft products and Motorola phones. Both of which, to me, are absolute cr@p.
Well I do not remember times where Motorola products were Made in the US of A.
They all made in Asia now. Who cares? I do not like Motorola. Could never really get the styling. They sell a lot cause they supply phones to compnay called Nextel that operates a non-GSM proprietary push-to-talk network. As far as Microsoft is concerned, well maybe it is crap but a very well selling crap ) I do not mind making such a crap as long as there will be someone willing to buy it... Thanks, world

Quote:
Believe me I know what's out there.
Outdated? Compared to what?
You are blinded by your sentiment to Nokia. C'mon guy, do no get married to a brand... We are talking about machines here...
Audiovox 5600 is my first Smartphone. I had Ericsson (crap), Nokia (decent), Motorola (crap), Nokia (decent), Siemens (excellent - S55), Nokia (6620 - definite dud) so I know a bit about phones and what to expect, which is exactly why I respected Nokia so much in the past and not so much today... Well if you are desining and sell phones like 3650, 6600, 6620, 6320 you really show lack of respect for your loyal customers...

By the way, a phone it is something that fits in your pants pocket without making you look indecent...
I have a VOIP app on my laptop but that definitely does not make it a phone. And so it does not Nokia Communicator...

Last edited by duchski; 07-11-2004 at 07:07 AM.
 

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