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  #1  
Old 29-01-2010, 04:40 PM
slitchfield slitchfield is offline
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Apple vs Nokia: Who is the biggest, and why it matters

Standing up in front of the world’s press, or quietly letting the numbers be published and just nudging people to draw their own conclusions? In their own ways, both Apple and Nokia this week laid claim to be the “the biggest company in mobile devices.” Steve took the stage, and Olli-Pekka left it to the annual results. And they were both right. Read on.

Read on in the full article.

  #2  
Old 29-01-2010, 05:10 PM
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Would RIM have something to say in this too?

  #3  
Old 29-01-2010, 05:17 PM
Brendan Donegan
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A MacBook is not a 'mobile device' Steve Jobs. You need to be able to actually use the thing while walking. iPod yes, iPhone yes, iPad - ooooh, pushing it. MacBook, well NO!
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Old 29-01-2010, 05:19 PM
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Yes. Probably 'We make no claim on the title of largest mobile device company in the world, because that would be ludicruous and we'd be laughed off the face of the earth'

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Old 29-01-2010, 05:19 PM
Seft Seft is offline
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Even including iPods and Macbooks I'm pretty sure that Nokia ships more devices and earns more revenue too. Is Apple basing their assertion on Market cap or, rather, enterprise value?

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Old 29-01-2010, 05:56 PM
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if I recall didn't nokia also release a tablet? N810, and all of its predecessors??

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Old 29-01-2010, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Brendan Donegan View Post
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Yes. Probably 'We make no claim on the title of largest mobile device company in the world, because that would be ludicruous and we'd be laughed off the face of the earth'
"however, we sell more smartphones than Apple".

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Old 29-01-2010, 06:46 PM
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"however, we sell more smartphones than Apple".

True, but I think the difference here is that Apple deliberately doesn't compete at the low end of the market. They sell devices that compete in the upper N-series and E-series ranges, only (and don't make an artificial distinction between enterprise and consumer, but that's a different topic).

As for "mobile devices," does the Nokia netbook count? If so, then perhaps so do MacBooks. Either way, from a market cap perspective, Apple is much bigger. Before iPhone was released, the two companies had similar market caps (with the edge to Nokia IIRC).

Both RIM and Nokia make low-end devices as well as high-end devices that meet the definition of a smartphone. Whether the owners of those devices use them as smartphones or even realize they are smartphones is debatable. Arguably, the third party development market indicates that iPhone owners use their phones more as smartphones.

What is interesting, though, is that with the iPad, Apple is attempting to create a new category of mobile device out of an old category of PC. Will Nokia compete in this category? If so, Maemo is the logical choice, given its roots in Internet tablets and more limited phone capabilities.

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Old 29-01-2010, 06:49 PM
KPOM
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Originally Posted by Seft View Post
Even including iPods and Macbooks I'm pretty sure that Nokia ships more devices and earns more revenue too. Is Apple basing their assertion on Market cap or, rather, enterprise value?
Last quarter, Apple had revenue of about $15.6 billion and Nokia about $10.1 billion. Obviously a lot of Apple's revenue is computer hardware and other non-mobile devices, but Nokia also has infrastructure revenue. Apple is the most profitable mobile phone maker. Nokia ships the most devices. As AAS points out, both are right.

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Old 29-01-2010, 07:24 PM
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Your figures are way off KPOM

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Old 29-01-2010, 07:26 PM
svdwal svdwal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KPOM View Post
"however, we sell more smartphones than Apple".

True, but I think the difference here is that Apple deliberately doesn't compete at the low end of the market. They sell devices that compete in the upper N-series and E-series ranges, only (and don't make an artificial distinction between enterprise and consumer, but that's a different topic).
Whether Apple competes in a certain segment of the mobile market or not is irrelevant when figuring out who's the biggest. Both Nokia and Apple are in the business to make money, so the deciding factor has to be how much money is being made. How it is made is strategy, and the success of a business strategy is measured by how much money is being made using that strategy.

Currently Nokia has it on revenue, but as Apple's stock is worth more, investors currently expect Apple to win at the end. And they you can say that Nokia has already for a long time in the business so their past earnings must be added. Which is true for Apple too . OTOH, the past is the past and that money is already taken. The question now is, do I buy Apple stock or Nokia stock?

Quote:
As for "mobile devices," does the Nokia netbook count? If so, then perhaps so do MacBooks. Either way, from a market cap perspective, Apple is much bigger. Before iPhone was released, the two companies had similar market caps (with the edge to Nokia IIRC).

Both RIM and Nokia make low-end devices as well as high-end devices that meet the definition of a smartphone. Whether the owners of those devices use them as smartphones or even realize they are smartphones is debatable. Arguably, the third party development market indicates that iPhone owners use their phones more as smartphones.

What is interesting, though, is that with the iPad, Apple is attempting to create a new category of mobile device out of an old category of PC. Will Nokia compete in this category? If so, Maemo is the logical choice, given its roots in Internet tablets and more limited phone capabilities.
For mobile computing devices, screen size is the discriminating factor because screen size determines portability. It either fits in your pocket, or it does not, and it has to be carried in a bag. Screen size is also the major factor in doing things comfortably, or with considerable hassle. Sometimes screens are just too small for what you want to do.

So the N900 isn't a competitor for the iPad because of it's screen size. The iPad competes directly with netbooks, including Nokia's netbook. Maemo will become a competitor as soon as there a device with a netbook-sized screen running Maemo.

  #12  
Old 29-01-2010, 07:45 PM
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The brand is on the device and the number of people carrying the brand is the difference.
Whether the object carrying the brand is "high end" or "medium" or what is irrelevant.

  #13  
Old 29-01-2010, 08:09 PM
Seft Seft is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KPOM View Post
Last quarter, Apple had revenue of about $15.6 billion and Nokia about $10.1 billion. Obviously a lot of Apple's revenue is computer hardware and other non-mobile devices, but Nokia also has infrastructure revenue. Apple is the most profitable mobile phone maker. Nokia ships the most devices. As AAS points out, both are right.
Going from the most recent set of annual reports (I couldn't find segmentals in Apple's 10-Q)

Apple portable revenue (USDm): 9,472 for Portable Macs, 8,091 for iPods and 6,754 for iPhone == 24,317

Nokia Devices and Services (i.e. Excluding Navteq and Nokia Siemens) revenue (EURm): 27,853 ~ 38,000 USDm

Unless Nokia is earning €10bn from services, they are comfortably ahead.

EDIT: Found it:

Apple Q1 portable revenue (USDm): 2,758 + 3,391 + 5,578 == 11,727
Nokia Q1 Devices & Services (EURm): 8,179 ~ 11,300 USDm

Looks like you're right after all. Any idea whether Apple sales are more seasonal or is it just that iPhone growth is pushing Apple ahead?

Last edited by Seft; 29-01-2010 at 08:20 PM.

  #14  
Old 29-01-2010, 08:29 PM
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Nokia counts Booklet too

Nokia counts Booklet in their mobile devices because they counted devices with a WAN wireless connection (so GSM/UMTS). OPK basically said this in his reported comments. So in their mind the only thing from Apple that counts is the iPhone. It seems that Apple counts anything you can physically pick up.

I like Nokia's definition better.

  #15  
Old 29-01-2010, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seft View Post
Snipped...

EDIT: Found it:

Apple Q1 portable revenue (USDm): 2,758 + 3,391 + 5,578 == 11,727
Nokia Q1 Devices & Services (EURm): 8,179 ~ 11,300 USDm

Looks like you're right after all. Any idea whether Apple sales are more seasonal or is it just that iPhone growth is pushing Apple ahead?
Forgive me, I'm not sure I'm reading this correct..?

If the Nokia figures are in Euro (million) (unconverted first figure) to the Apple ones being in USD (millions), then Nokia STILL WIN...?

8,179 million EUROS, when I run it through various converters, comes in at 11,894 in USD (million).

(In other words, the REAL answer here is that depending on WHAT you use for your currency conversion site/tool, you can either show it truthfully either way, that Nokia have higher numbers, or that Apple have higher numbers.

The truth, as Steve says in his article, clearly really is somewhere in between.

That is, even for Q1 revenues, they are pretty much neck and neck, with Nokia holding their own fine.

HTH - it's not Apple knocking, or Fanboi defensiveness (for either company) - just pointing out that as the figures really are so close, you really CAN'T state one as being above the other, as Currency Conversion can always factually be used to show one higher than the other either way you want it to.
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