All About Symbian - Nokia (S60) and Sony Ericsson (UIQ) smartphones unwrapped

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  #31  
Old 05-08-2010, 07:38 AM
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CPU vs GPU for web browser? Comments missing the point? The time it takes to transfer data from a web server to your phone matters more than a few MHz from one of these processors.
Precisely. If it were as simple as clocking up the CPU to increase rendering speed then we would all be on a miracle network. These tests that are run over WiFi with a web server on the local network are BS compared to how we have to use these things in real life, with contended cell time, contended last mile (for ADSL WiFi), contended originating server, general network conditions and signal strength variation.

A few Mhz and a few seconds here and there are all lodged in the minds of the anally retentive.

Speaking of which, the captcha symbols above took a full 10 seconds longer than the rest of the page to appear. Rendering? Nope, not on IE on a fast corporate connection. Captcha servers delayed it.

  #32  
Old 05-08-2010, 08:21 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Looks nice but the main issue with Ovi Store was never the (clunky, slow, annoying) client but the fact that it will serve software that your phone just won't run. I've never had that issue with either the Android or the iPhone stores but on my E71, I bought several things from the store, on-device, that would never install. That undermines consumer confidence in it and has made me very wary. Let's hope this update helps.

The Ovi services as a suite are fine, in fact they are very good and a match for MobileMe and even the Google services for most users, but the store needas a lot of work.

  #33  
Old 05-08-2010, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
Looks nice but the main issue with Ovi Store was never the (clunky, slow, annoying) client but the fact that it will serve software that your phone just won't run. I've never had that issue with either the Android or the iPhone stores but on my E71, I bought several things from the store, on-device, that would never install. That undermines consumer confidence in it and has made me very wary..
I definitely have that problem with Android market. In fact some things have warnings on their description "won't work with" etc, or "only works on". But I've had several apps that won't run and several where the screen size won't fit.

I don't find Android market to be very different from Ovi Store. Both are miles behind Apple's App store.

  #34  
Old 05-08-2010, 08:43 AM
slitchfield slitchfield is offline
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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
I'm disappointed that someone who has been following the smartphone arena for so long could make such a statement. Today's smartphones (even the fast ARMv7 devices) are CPU bound when loading/rending websites. Double the CPU power and you almost half the load/rendering time.
Sorry, but that's rubbish in the real world. As per my editorial earlier this week, when out of Wi-Fi range, i.e. most of the time when mobile, the speed of the data connection (EDGE/3G etc) is by far the biggest bottleneck.
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  #35  
Old 05-08-2010, 08:50 AM
Mr Mark Mr Mark is offline
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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
I'm disappointed that someone who has been following the smartphone arena for so long could make such a statement. Today's smartphones (even the fast ARMv7 devices) are CPU bound when loading/rending websites. Double the CPU power and you almost half the load/rendering time.

The only significant impact that GPU acceleration will have is to make scrolling and zooming around the webpage smoother. This is after having to wait for the slow ARM11 CPU to load and render the webpage.
The N8 uses the CPU for HTML rendering and the GPU for screen rendering. Other manufacturers use the CPU for both.

As has been mentioned, the real factor in web browsing is data transmission speed. The N8's CPU is more than capable of rendering a web page on a 3.5" screen.

  #36  
Old 05-08-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Mark View Post
The N8 uses the CPU for HTML rendering and the GPU for screen rendering. Other manufacturers use the CPU for both.

As has been mentioned, the real factor in web browsing is data transmission speed. The N8's CPU is more than capable of rendering a web page on a 3.5" screen.
Not so much the physical size of the screen, but the resolution. Less pixels is less data to shift.

  #37  
Old 05-08-2010, 10:07 AM
krisq krisq is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimmy1 View Post
A bit OT Rafe, but any news if the Internet Radio app from S60v3 will make it to Symbian 3 and the N8? It's one of the hidden built in gems of the E-series that unfortunately hadn't made its way to S60v5 for God knows whatever reason.

The internet radio app, along with the podcasting app bundled in with the N8 firmware would likely make it more appealing for an upgrade, even to older E and N series users.
Have you heard abouy TuneWiki?

  #38  
Old 05-08-2010, 11:08 AM
wellisntTHATqt
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Qt runs on most 3rd ed FP1/FP2 and 5th ed devices. N96 is the only device that can't run it due to the different CPU.

The only problem on the N97 is the disk space on C:. Qt must be installed on C, and the full library takes about 11MB of disk space. This includes the core libraries, networking, databases, SVG, OpenGL, multimedia and QtWebKit.

I don't know whether the Qt smart installer will only download the libs that you need, but sooner or later you will have the full Qt installed on the phone.

  #39  
Old 05-08-2010, 11:39 AM
Will81
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
CPU vs GPU for web browser? Comments missing the point? The time it takes to transfer data from a web server to your phone matters more than a few MHz from one of these processors.
Unless you're stuck on a 2G network, this is not the case.

Quote:
Precisely. If it were as simple as clocking up the CPU to increase rendering speed then we would all be on a miracle network. These tests that are run over WiFi with a web server on the local network are BS compared to how we have to use these things in real life, with contended cell time, contended last mile (for ADSL WiFi), contended originating server, general network conditions and signal strength variation.
Nope. Have a read through this article:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2798/6

To summarise, Anand tested the iPhone 3G (with its approx 400MHz ARM11 SoC) to the iPhone 3GS (with its approx 600 MHz Cortex-A8 SoC). On AT&T's 2009 HSPA network, with both phones running iOS 3.0, loading website that are NOT on the local network, the iPhone 3GS was 114% faster than the iPhone 3G.

To quote Anand:
--------------------------------
It is important to realize what we're talking about here. These phones, particularly ones that are using old ARM11 based SoCs, are CPU bound while loading web pages. Even while browsing over a relatively slow < 1Mbps cellular network, the CPU still ends up being a significant bottleneck to web page rendering performance. Compare that to how things work on the desktop - when was the last time you felt your PC was too slow to browse the web? The Cortex A8 is a huge step forward here, and once again, there's no excuse for putting any ARM11 in a high end smartphone today.
--------------------------------

Just to further emphasise that point, I use a 3G connection at home as my primary internet connection (3G USB modem connected to an Asus router) and have no issues with performance.

Quote:
Sorry, but that's rubbish in the real world. As per my editorial earlier this week, when out of Wi-Fi range, i.e. most of the time when mobile, the speed of the data connection (EDGE/3G etc) is by far the biggest bottleneck.
Unless your 3G connection is as slow as 56K dial-up, I don't know what real world you're living in.

I loaded the pcper.com homepage and it used approximately 1.0MB on my desktop with IE8 with Flash enabled. On a phone, I would expect the data consumption to be lower as the phone won't be loading the Flash ads.

At 1 Mbps (which lets face it is slow for a HSPA connection), it would take 8 seconds to download that data. The browser on my S60 phone takes a LOT longer then that to fully load and render the page.

Just as a reference, my home 3G connection usually clocks in between 3-5 Mbps for downloads and I'm using a relatively slow 7.2 Mbps modem on a pretty average network. If I was willing to pay more, I could go on a far less congested and faster 21 Mbps 3G HSPA network that is in the process of getting an upgrade to 42 Mbps nationwide within a year.

And to add more fuel to my arguement, have a look at this comparison by Crackberry of the new webkit browser on the BB Torch compared to the iPhone 4 and the Samsung Captivate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLvQpXapIrY

Even over 3G, the BB was slower to fully load and render a webpage DESPITE the fact that it was receiving compressed data from RIM's servers. The iPhone 4 and Samsung Captivate had to download more data over the 3G connection but were still able to beat the Torch because they weren't crippled by the Torch's slow ARM11 CPU.

BTW, I read your editorial and while I agree that Opera Mini is great on S60 phones, I disagree with your reasoning. The main reason I use it is because the webpage rendering is done on Opera' far more powerful server and not on my underpowered phone so I'm not left there waiting for up to a minute for a complex page to load (or more likely crash the browser).

  #40  
Old 05-08-2010, 11:47 AM
krisq krisq is offline
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Originally Posted by wellisntTHATqt View Post
Qt runs on most 3rd ed FP1/FP2 and 5th ed devices. N96 is the only device that can't run it due to the different CPU.

The only problem on the N97 is the disk space on C:. Qt must be installed on C, and the full library takes about 11MB of disk space. This includes the core libraries, networking, databases, SVG, OpenGL, multimedia and QtWebKit.

I don't know whether the Qt smart installer will only download the libs that you need, but sooner or later you will have the full Qt installed on the phone.
Even with smart installer, it still is about 7mb. I really hope Qt will be built-in in v30. As well as Maps 3.04.

  #41  
Old 05-08-2010, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
Unless you're stuck on a 2G network, this is not the case.

You've tried this one before, you were wrong then and you are still wrong. According to real life it is the case. 3G theoretical speed is not reality, it's highly variable. Same for WiFi connections.

It will not do you any good repeatedly trying to tell people that their real world experience is wrong. They are going to believe reality, not your failed reasoning.
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  #42  
Old 05-08-2010, 01:29 PM
Will81
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You've tried this one before, you were wrong then and you are still wrong. According to real life it is the case. 3G theoretical speed is not reality, it's highly variable. Same for WiFi connections.
So Anand's and Smartphone Expert's real life case is wrong then?

Yes there are areas where the 3G network is heavily congested and if you happen to live and work in such an area, then yes, bad luck. Complain to your carrier or better yet, switch to another carrier.

But I'm willing to bet that for the majority of people with 3G coverage, they will be able to get at least 1 Mbps which means that the phone's CPU will be the bottleneck when loading/rending websites. Otherwise carriers wouldn't be able to get away with selling "mobile broadband" to millions of customers if all you're getting is dial-up speeds.

Quote:
It will not do you any good repeatedly trying to tell people that their real world experience is wrong. They are going to believe reality, not your failed reasoning.
If people find that browsing websites on their phone is slow, most will immediately blame the network, often incorrectly. Average Joe doesn't realise that there are other bottlenecks and is not going to do controlled tests to find out whether it is the network, software or hardware that is causing the slowdown. Average Joe will simply say... "bloody lousy [insert carrier here] network".

Controlled, real-life tests (such as the one I pointed out), shows that slow browsing can be caused by lack of processing power

  #43  
Old 05-08-2010, 01:37 PM
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Weird

Ok, then. Can you then explain why there are several examples of the ARM11 based N97 (non-accelerated) loading web-pages faster than the ARM11 based accelerated iPhone 3G?


  #44  
Old 05-08-2010, 02:46 PM
slitchfield slitchfield is offline
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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
Yes there are areas where the 3G network is heavily congested and if you happen to live and work in such an area, then yes, bad luck. Complain to your carrier or better yet, switch to another carrier. But I'm willing to bet that for the majority of people with 3G coverage, they will be able to get at least 1 Mbps which means that the phone's CPU will be the bottleneck when loading/rending websites. Otherwise carriers wouldn't be able to get away with selling "mobile broadband" to millions of customers if all you're getting is dial-up speeds.
I live in and around a major UK city. And I get good 3G coverage, though not 3.5G. Downloads average around 100kb/s on a good day.At busy times, or when travelling more than 10 miles from the city centre, I'm often staring at EDGE if I'm lucky.

I'm not totally excusing Web or indeed the processor in these phones, I do take your point. But you have to meet me halfway. In the real world, network coverage and speeds is still a huge, huge factor for many.

Stuck in Somerset at my parents house (only 5 miles from a major town, no hills in the way), I get three bars of GSM and GPRS only for data. What use a 1GHz processor then???
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  #45  
Old 05-08-2010, 03:20 PM
Jimmy1 Jimmy1 is offline
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Originally Posted by krisq View Post
Have you heard abouy TuneWiki?
TuneWiki sucks.

Well, okay, it doesn't totally suck but in comparison to the S60v3 app, it does.

You can't add stations in TuneWicki. The v3 'manually add station' feature is great, particularly as here in NY I was able to add a couple of regional AM sports stations that were also available online. I'm a New York Yankees and NY Giants fan, so being able to follow these teams, even on the radio, is a must.

I was also able to add a couple of great, funky college-run rock radio stations that also weren't available in TuneWicki's Shoutcast directory. This one application is really extending the life of my old Nokia E66, even as I'm checking out newer Android phones to adopt for daily use (although I understand that Android has some pretty great internet radio apps with an 'add station' feature).

Last edited by Jimmy1; 05-08-2010 at 03:31 PM.
 

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