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  #16  
Old 03-08-2010, 09:07 AM
dj...
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opera mobile and the BBC news website

Hey,

slightly off topic but close to this thread. Why does the Opera Mobile browser, which is excellent for most other sites, make such a hash of the BBC news website? it completely fails to reflow the text when you zoom in. This means that when you have the text at a sensible size (for reading) you have to scroll everywhere to read it. A right pain.

I switched to mini just so that I got the text re-flowed. Oh and I use an N97.

Otherwise I like both the opera browsers. quick and simple. I trust their proxy privacy enough.

cheers,
dj

  #17  
Old 03-08-2010, 10:15 AM
igb igb is offline
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Personally, I would like to see operators improve their woeful 3G coverage outside urban areas.

On a recent trip to the Dolomites I was getting perfect 3g coverage, even on top of the mountains. Similarly in Snowdonia I can get good 3G coverage in most places. Here at home, out in the sticks between towns there is no 3G coverage at all.

Ian.

  #18  
Old 03-08-2010, 10:34 AM
Mr Mark Mr Mark is offline
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@Will81

I take your point about the CPU but bear in mind the rendering will be done by the GPU on the N8. It's not as simple as more clock cycles.

  #19  
Old 03-08-2010, 10:40 AM
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malerocks malerocks is offline
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Hi Cox, what about this then, also from the Opera site:

"Opera is the smart choice for browsing on expensive wireless data plans. Using Opera to browse the Web with your mobile phone can save you money on your phone bills, by reducing your data usage substantially. Opera Mini uses only a tenth of the bandwidth of other browsers, compressing Web pages by up to 90%. On Opera Mobile, turning on Opera Turbo compresses data up to 80% or leave Opera Turbo off to get full Web site data, as you would on a PC."

What you have pasted is about rendering. That is not the same as compressing. And the FAQs is doing comparisons between the default setting of both the browsers. Once Opera Turbo is turned on in Opera Mobile, it uses the servers as well - for compressing, not for rendering.

  #20  
Old 03-08-2010, 11:17 AM
Cox Ukka
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Originally Posted by malerocks View Post
Hi Cox, what about this then, also from the Opera site:

"Opera is the smart choice for browsing on expensive wireless data plans. Using Opera to browse the Web with your mobile phone can save you money on your phone bills, by reducing your data usage substantially. Opera Mini uses only a tenth of the bandwidth of other browsers, compressing Web pages by up to 90%. On Opera Mobile, turning on Opera Turbo compresses data up to 80% or leave Opera Turbo off to get full Web site data, as you would on a PC."

What you have pasted is about rendering. That is not the same as compressing. And the FAQs is doing comparisons between the default setting of both the browsers. Once Opera Turbo is turned on in Opera Mobile, it uses the servers as well - for compressing, not for rendering.
I don't really understand what you are trying to communicate. This section from the FAQ passage I already quoted:

"By using Opera Mini, our servers do most of the work, so it works well with less- capable phones. Pages are often smaller (saving you money) and faster to load due our server-side compression. Opera Mobile can compress pages also, by enabling Opera Turbo."

Says they same thing that you seem to be saying but in far less words, but also includes compression. It wasn't me who asked about the difference between mini and mobile.

  #21  
Old 03-08-2010, 12:12 PM
slitchfield slitchfield is offline
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@SFx86: " as a person using HoTMetaL PRO 5.0 "

Eh? I used that for a while in the early 2000s.... It got discontinued, sadly. I still work at the HTML tag level though - guess I should go through and rip out some of the HoTMetaL comment lines on all 150 pages? One rainy day, maybe.....
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  #22  
Old 03-08-2010, 02:19 PM
Will81
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The 434 MHz ARM11 in the N97 should be measured against the 412MHZ ARM11 in the iPhone 3G. (although the iPhone had graphics accelerator to support the CPU).
So we should compare the N97, Nokia's current "flagship" consumer smartphone (and no I don't count the N900 as a consumer phone) to the iPhone 3G, a phone which was superseded by the significantly faster iPhone 3GS, which was in turn superseded by an even faster iPhone 4.

Quote:
I disagree that the Nokia flagship phone will be the N8, it's now going to be their mid range phone, with Meego devices supplying the "flagship"(I hate that geeky word flagship). The price of the phone purchased as handset only will be below the ones with 1GHz in to reflect this.
When the N8 is released, I think it will take over the reigns from the N97 as Nokia's flagship. I think it'll be a while before we see a consumer-ready Meego smartphone on the market.

Quote:
I personally (like the vast majority of buyers) couldn't give a flying fig about the number on the CPU and I will only judge a phone by how it works for me.
While I somewhat agree with that statement regarding tech specs, most buyers do care about the useability of the device and if web browsing is an important aspect, a device that renders the full Facebook page in 32 seconds is going to look rather poor compared to one that does it in 14 seconds (Anandtech's comparison of the 3G to the 3GS).

Quote:
I take your point about the CPU but bear in mind the rendering will be done by the GPU on the N8. It's not as simple as more clock cycles.
The webpage rendering engine (WebKit) and the Javascript engine cannot be executed on the GPU. Zooming and scrolling may be smoother on the N8 (assuming the browser gets GPU acceleration) but rendering a webpage will still be magnitudes slower than current Cortex-A8 or Snapdragon-based device.

  #23  
Old 03-08-2010, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
So we should compare the N97, Nokia's current "flagship" consumer smartphone (and no I don't count the N900 as a consumer phone) to the iPhone 3G, a phone which was superseded by the significantly faster iPhone 3GS, which was in turn superseded by an even faster iPhone 4.
Well yes, that's what I wrote. It's acknowledged that N97 was a f*** up and Nokia haven't yet recovered with a faster model. I really don't understand that there is any point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
When the N8 is released, I think it will take over the reigns from the N97 as Nokia's flagship. I think it'll be a while before we see a consumer-ready Meego smartphone on the market.
It will be significantly cheaper than the 1GHz. Desire and 800MHz iPhone 4, so it is not being pitched directly against those phones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
While I somewhat agree with that statement regarding tech specs, most buyers do care about the useability of the device and if web browsing is an important aspect, a device that renders the full Facebook page in 32 seconds is going to look rather poor compared to one that does it in 14 seconds (Anandtech's comparison of the 3G to the 3GS).
Yes, that's what I said: "I will only judge a phone by how it works for me". Have you timed he N8 rendering of an full facebook page (not that I ever do that when I have a perfectly good app).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
The webpage rendering engine (WebKit) and the Javascript engine cannot be executed on the GPU. Zooming and scrolling may be smoother on the N8 (assuming the browser gets GPU acceleration) but rendering a webpage will still be magnitudes slower than current Cortex-A8 or Snapdragon-based device.
Most phone CPUs are waiting for the data over the connection anyway. Most consumers aren't anally retentive enough to go looking at split times for page rendering. I admire the power of your crystal ball.

  #24  
Old 03-08-2010, 05:06 PM
Tenkom Tenkom is offline
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Saying that the cpu(the whole SoC is important really) isn't important is just ridiculous when all you have to do is look at the iphone 3g vs 3gs. Same software, better cpu and easily twice the speed.

  #25  
Old 03-08-2010, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tenkom View Post
Saying that the cpu(the whole SoC is important really) isn't important is just ridiculous when all you have to do is look at the iphone 3g vs 3gs. Same software, better cpu and easily twice the speed.
I didn't find my 3GS was twice as fast as my old 3G, it's faster but not anywhere near twice.

People aren't saying that CPUs aren't important, they are saying that just numbers (the clock speed) means nothing to most buyers, actual use in the hand is more important.

Otherwise the 800MHz iPhone 4 would be embarrassed by the (older) 1GHz handsets, but it clearly isn't.
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2010, 08:54 PM
Tenkom Tenkom is offline
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The iphone 4(800mhz a4) is noticeably slower than than the ipad(1 ghz a4). I know. I have them both. And please check out this review of the iphone 3gs.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2790

122% speed increase when loading web pages is even more than twice as fast.

Saying that hardware isn't important is like saying "I don't care about the size of the engine, I just want the car to go fast." These things go hand in hand.

  #27  
Old 04-08-2010, 01:30 AM
Will81
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It will be significantly cheaper than the 1GHz. Desire and 800MHz iPhone 4, so it is not being pitched directly against those phones.
Really? Currently Nokia Italy has the N8 for pre-order at 469. Amazon Germany has it for 482.
In the UK, Play.com has it listed at 419.99 while Clove has it for 417.12.

On the other hand, the HTC Desire with its 1 GHz Snapdragon is 387.75 inc VAT on Clove.

Quote:
Most phone CPUs are waiting for the data over the connection anyway. Most consumers aren't anally retentive enough to go looking at split times for page rendering. I admire the power of your crystal ball.
This might be true if you're stuck on a 2G connection or a ridiculously congested 3G network but it certainly isn't true for most people with decent 3G coverage. Anand tested the iPhone 3G vs the 3GS over AT&T's 3G network and found "the 3GS looks to be around 114% faster than the iPhone 3G - definitely worth the upgrade if you do a lot of browsing on your phone."

He then went on to say:

Quote:
It is important to realize what we're talking about here. These phones, particularly ones that are using old ARM11 based SoCs, are CPU bound while loading web pages. Even while browsing over a relatively slow < 1Mbps cellular network, the CPU still ends up being a significant bottleneck to web page rendering performance. Compare that to how things work on the desktop - when was the last time you felt your PC was too slow to browse the web? The Cortex A8 is a huge step forward here, and once again, there's no excuse for putting any ARM11 in a high end smartphone today.
He said that in July 2009. It is now August 2010.

This is why I prefer Opera Mini on my s60 phone. Opera Mobile brings the phone to a screeching halt trying to render complex sites. Like Opera said, "By using Opera Mini, our servers do most of the work (rendering the page), so it works well with less- capable phones."

Quote:
Otherwise the 800MHz iPhone 4 would be embarrassed by the (older) 1GHz handsets, but it clearly isn't
That is because the 800 MHz iPhone 4 is using a Cortex-A8 CPU. The 1 GHz Snapdragon devices have approximately 1.25x more CPU power. Noticeable difference? Maybe. Huge difference? No.

BUT, the N8 has a 600 MHz ARM11 CPU. The 1 GHz Snapdragon devices have approximately 3.33x more CPU power than the N8. The iPhone 4 has approximately 2.66x more CPU power than the N8. Noticeable difference? What do you think

  #28  
Old 04-08-2010, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
Really? Currently Nokia Italy has the N8 for pre-order at 469. Amazon Germany has it for 482.
In the UK, Play.com has it listed at 419.99 while Clove has it for 417.12.

On the other hand, the HTC Desire with its 1 GHz Snapdragon is 387.75 inc VAT on Clove.

Have you been following new phone releases? When they do eventually appear they always come to market much cheaper than these early prices. In every case where I have bought one this has always been true. I don't know if it's dodgy marketing to make people think they are getting a bargain, or just early conservative pricing but that's the way it has always worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
This might be true if you're stuck on a 2G connection or a ridiculously congested 3G network but it certainly isn't true for most people with decent 3G coverage. Anand tested the iPhone 3G vs the 3GS over AT&T's 3G network and found "the 3GS looks to be around 114% faster than the iPhone 3G - definitely worth the upgrade if you do a lot of browsing on your phone."
This is assuming the last mile is the only bottleneck. It's not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
He said that in July 2009. It is now August 2010.
What planet are you on? That was so irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post

BUT, the N8 has a 600 MHz ARM11 CPU. The 1 GHz Snapdragon devices have approximately 3.33x more CPU power than the N8. The iPhone 4 has approximately 2.66x more CPU power than the N8. Noticeable difference? What do you think
QED the cost of the iPhone 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TENKOM
Saying that hardware isn't important is like saying "I don't care about the size of the engine, I just want the car to go fast." These things go hand in hand
Very poor metaphor. It's not the size of the engine but the power output, and it's not always related to displacement size. BHP per ton works better, because a lighter car can accelerate faster with a smaller engine.

But, Nokia haven't produced or shown any phone that they intend to compete at the high end, presumably this is being kept quiet. As previously discussed to exhaustion Symbian OS is intended for Nokia low to mid range smartphones with Meego at the top.

Horses for courses. What processer will be in the Meego phones? Nobody knows but the Aava developer prototype has Intel Moorestown Atom at 1.5GHz. Presumably this is to provide the developers with the right sort of performance parameters for the developers for the type of phones that will appear in Nokia's high range.

So why are people bleating on about Nokia's mid-range smartphone offering with enhanced photo capability?

  #29  
Old 04-08-2010, 06:30 PM
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The iphone 4(800mhz a4) is noticeably slower than than the ipad(1 ghz a4). I know. I have them both. And please check out this review of the iphone 3gs.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2790

122% speed increase when loading web pages is even more than twice as fast.

.
Irrelevant. As said before, real world use and geeks with stopwatches are miles apart.

  #30  
Old 04-08-2010, 06:51 PM
Tenkom Tenkom is offline
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You don't need a stopwatch to spot that difference.
 

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