All About Symbian - Nokia (S60) and Sony Ericsson (UIQ) smartphones unwrapped

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Old 23-06-2008, 12:39 PM
bartmanekul bartmanekul is offline
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Why Nokia Maps is all wrong.

This rant was a long time coming.

The basic model of maps is actually very good. A subscription based model isnt new, but one where you can download the maps in advance is. This gives it a huge plus over existing ones like Wayfinder. Not having to use data. In theory.

Nokia are undeniably in the best position for implimenting satnav on phones. They have the content (bought Navteq, one of the main mapping companies), they have the resources, and they have the ease of being able to integrate it easily into their phones.

But its currently a big failure. Its far from being near as functional as a PND, it lacks integration of the phones and software, and on top of all that, its far too expensive.


Heres is a list of failings/improvments:


Integration. The fact its from Nokia and run on S60 amazes me with the total lack of integration. A good example is that you cannot send your location or favourites as a navigatable option to others with maps. Comeon Nokia, every phone is set to have Maps installed, this function is so incrediably useful. Garmin have peerpoints, which is where you first select a location, anything from a new location, to a favourite or current location, and send it via text. This then appears in your peerpoints, and you can do what you like with it, view on map, add to favourites or navigate to it.

There was a very good idea by someone else on this forum. Can you use the exif data from geotagged pictures to navigate to? How brilliant is that, and easy? If it detects that it has GPS co-ords in the exif data of a picture, why not add an option in the options list that can do something like add it as a favourite to your Maps favourites? How good would it be for someone to send you a picture of a nice place via MMS, and you can navigate to it? or download a picture from a website and navigate to it?

Its things like that which make all the integration work, and for it to actually seem integrated, rather than just another app in the list. And since Nokia have also introduced the geotagger to all future phones with GPS, they should have thought of it before someone else.


The need to be online. I really dont understand why it has to be online to do so much. You have to be online to do a full postcode search. You have to be online to get a full POI result. And apperently, being online increases the speed accuracy of route calculation.

While data is becoming more affordable, Nokia are pushing GPS into lower cost handsets, and even some S40 devices which are very cheap. There is quite a lot of people who get charged for each use of data, and dont want to be charged each time when they look for a location.

POI lists and postcodes and addresses are so tiny in space theres no reason to keep them online only. Make them available via update, in the same way as updating maps. Or, even better, make it an option to download these lists over the air, since they will be small in size.

Just something other than making people rely on using data. I have seen quite a few people now say that Maps isnt viable for them since it requires data to do almost anything. Feels like the whole effort of making the maps themselves downloadable pointless.


Cost. I have ranted about cost before, but its obviously wrong. Almost everyone I speak to says its too much. And before people say that its because you dont have to pay for map updates, I understand this.

I also understand that by using the subscription model you can pay far less than traditional satnav. And obviously, have the bonus of updated maps, the best of both worlds.

However, I object not just to the price of the subscription, but mainly the options.

Touted as very handy for occasional use, what on earth is the point in just having a minimum of a month? Day, week and fortnightly would be of vast more use than the current options. After all, thats when your most likely to use it, when your on holiday or travelling away. Or just a day trip.

Generally, the more you buy of something, the better value you get. So why is the 3 month option cost more than the 1 month option? By that I mean if you buy the 3 month option, it costs more than just renewing the monthly one twice.

Yearly costs are a joke. If Nokia want to make this attractive to those who dislike subscription models (which there are a lot of), then make some better options for longer periods. The yearly is way to expensive, and they have got rid of the 3 year option.


Proper functionality. Nokia claims its as functional as your average PND. Its not, by a long shot. For starters, the traffic does not alert you to accidents and the like. Not much good.

And its missing something which is seen as fundamental to PNDs by many people. The ability to have speed camera alerts. Since it doesnt offer this as a paid for option, nor does it support custom POI of interest, speed cam alerts are not possible with Maps.


I want to like Nokia maps. But I keep finding so much wrong with it, and so lacking in functionality Im put off paying the extremely high prices. I daresay much is in the pipeline, but they had better sort out these issues fast before all the new devices come out (6220 classic, 6210 navigator, N96, N78 etc) with Maps already onboard.

I estimate many more people joining forums and asking questions like 'data usage with maps'.

  #2  
Old 23-06-2008, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartmanekul View Post
This rant was a long time coming.


There was a very good idea by someone else on this forum. Can you use the exif data from geotagged pictures to navigate to? How brilliant is that, and easy? If it detects that it has GPS co-ords in the exif data of a picture, why not add an option in the options list that can do something like add it as a favourite to your Maps favourites? How good would it be for someone to send you a picture of a nice place via MMS, and you can navigate to it? or download a picture from a website and navigate to it?

Its things like that which make all the integration work, and for it to actually seem integrated, rather than just another app in the list. And since Nokia have also introduced the geotagger to all future phones with GPS, they should have thought of it before someone else.
This actually works on an N82, if you receive a picture via email or bluetooth and the picture is geotagged. once you save the picture to your gallery you have the option to view in Nokia Maps, you can then navigate to the location of the picture.

Sadly it doesn't work with MMS as the exif data is stripped from the picture
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Old 23-06-2008, 01:21 PM
bartmanekul bartmanekul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratkat View Post
This actually works on an N82, if you receive a picture via email or bluetooth and the picture is geotagged. once you save the picture to your gallery you have the option to view in Nokia Maps, you can then navigate to the location of the picture.

Sadly it doesn't work with MMS as the exif data is stripped from the picture
Ah, really? I hadnt heard anything about that, and Ive been following stuff closely. I'll have to retract that then. I presume its on new phones.

Shame it doesnt work via MMS, though thats a fault of MMS presumably, rather than Maps.

Why doesn't it work on the N95 I wonder (or does it, can someone check?)

  #4  
Old 23-06-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartmanekul View Post
Ah, really? I hadnt heard anything about that, and Ive been following stuff closely. I'll have to retract that then. I presume its on new phones.

Shame it doesnt work via MMS, though thats a fault of MMS presumably, rather than Maps.

Why doesn't it work on the N95 I wonder (or does it, can someone check?)
No your review stands.

It will only currently work with the N82 (with latest firmware) and N78 which have built in geotagging support in the Camera and Gallery applications.
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Last edited by Ratkat; 23-06-2008 at 01:27 PM.

  #5  
Old 23-06-2008, 07:58 PM
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Nokia maps is useful, especially the new version!!!

Hello,

bartmanekul!

I'm sorry to tell you, but i am a bit surprized about your post. Yes I do and not only about what you wrote. I'm also wonder how can a Super Moderator write in this language and kind of anger in your words on a website called "allaboutsymbian.com".

I'm not used to reply this kind of posts, but now i have to even if I can see the amount of posts you did already and your rank of this site what makes me respect you and your opinion, BUT!!!

You've forgot, that the none of the Nokia phones are presented and/or designed as car navigation or any navigation system only. They are mobile phones or smartphones with a navigation feature, what I personally like and use with big satisfaction.
Your post is looking for ptoblems, you could write, that the screen of the Nokias are to small to be a PND or Nokia maps does not support 3D maps and so on. I think it's unfair. Even I understand and agree with your exif-geotag-follow feature and some others too, I just wouldn't use this language.

So the Nokia maps is for smartphones first of all. Phones you can keep in your pocket, use in your car, again you can put in your pocket, walk and navigate, have a coffe on the street and plan your route for your next excoursion, check your mails, chat. This freedom makes not only Nokia but other smartphones and PDA's with navigation capabilities so good. That is what they are planned for.

If you check the difference between the Nokia maps released version and the 2.0 beta version, you will see, that Nokia's new map software is changed a lot in the good direction. The fact that it's still in beta phase is another good news. It means, that it's development does not finished. What should make you happy, beacuse your suggested features can be built in. That proves Ratkat's post too.

You don't understand why to use data and you say that Nokia maps pushes yout to go online. The 2.0 beta only ask you if you would like to go online. Another reason for you to hold your anger and be a bit happy, the things changing the way you like.
Why use data and download? Because the maps for each country are differ in size. Have you ever checked how large is the file for all the cities for US? Or for all countries of the world?. More than 2gb. How will Nokia know which map to preinstall to your phone before you buy it? It's impossible. Or you want to pay for an 8 gig memcard at the moment when you buy your phone only because Nokia has preinstalled the whole worlds map?
That's why Nokia maps downloads just the data you actually need.
With other words it saves data and storage as well!!! If i go now to check my position on my E90, it uses 30-100 kb of data to show me my position (if i'm at a new location), what takes 2 sec with 3.5G connection. Is that too much?

I repeat. I respect your opinion about Nokia Maps and some of them I do agree. But this way of posting is unfair.

Your good ideas should be posted to the nokia discussion forum as advice or feature request. Or open anew thread here for feature suggestions. That can be helpful. But to post THIS HERE is only good to push others to don't use or buy something because of your wrong need.

Cheers,
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Last edited by swingerman; 23-06-2008 at 08:02 PM.

  #6  
Old 24-06-2008, 12:17 AM
bartmanekul bartmanekul is offline
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Quote:
I'm sorry to tell you, but i am a bit surprized about your post. Yes I do and not only about what you wrote. I'm also wonder how can a Super Moderator write in this language and kind of anger in your words on a website called "allaboutsymbian.com".
Theres nothing wrong with my language. And AAS is here as an impartial site. Which means Im lucky enough to be able to say what I think about software. Which is exactly what I have done here.

Quote:
You've forgot, that the none of the Nokia phones are presented and/or designed as car navigation or any navigation system only. They are mobile phones or smartphones with a navigation feature, what I personally like and use with big satisfaction.
No, I havent forgot. Aside from the small screen and it not being touch screen, theres no reason why a mobile cannot be as good as a dedicated device. It has the processing power, the memory, and of course the extra connectivity.

There is no longer a reason to say that because its a mobile it wont be as good, because its no longer true. I have used all of the main commercial satnav applications, and the sad fact is, most are better than Nokia maps. Its all down to the software now, and theres little excuse for making badly made programs when the hardware is there.

Nokia maps isnt bad as such, it just falls way behind most others I have used, and is costly.


Quote:
You don't understand why to use data and you say that Nokia maps pushes yout to go online. The 2.0 beta only ask you if you would like to go online. Another reason for you to hold your anger and be a bit happy, the things changing the way you like.
No, theres no reason for it to be online. As I explained, many people dont have data packages, and its going to be expensive for them to use. Whats the point in staying offline if you cant find what your looking for?

You have missed what I was on about entirely, I am not on about the maps, those you can choose and preinstall. As I said in my post, I am on about searching for locations, which uses data if you want good results.


Quote:
If i go now to check my position on my E90, it uses 30-100 kb of data to show me my position (if i'm at a new location), what takes 2 sec with 3.5G connection. Is that too much?
You havent grasped what Im on about again, as your on about AGPS, which you can disable.

I have been on about the data which people have to go online to search for. Addresses, postcodes, and POI. This data is absoloutly tiny, you can get millions of postcodes into a very small file. My point is, why keep it online, and make those without dataplans spend a few pence each time? It would make so much sense to have all the data available to download like the maps are.

Quote:
I repeat. I respect your opinion about Nokia Maps and some of them I do agree. But this way of posting is unfair.
In what way is it? I feel Nokia maps is, for the price, currently a substandard product, and they could improve it so much more.

Quote:
Your good ideas should be posted to the nokia discussion forum as advice or feature request. Or open anew thread here for feature suggestions. That can be helpful. But to post THIS HERE is only good to push others to don't use or buy something because of your wrong need.
I have contacted Nokia about things like this. I have discussed other features on Nokia Maps. And this thread is open to suggestions, like your own.

Other people on these forums give opinions of software/hardware, some of it a lot more critical than my view.

Just because Im a super moderator doesnt mean I cannot give my views. I am one of the best to give an opinion, since I am very much into symbian satnav and have used a vast amount of them, as well as talking to the companies that make them.

Since Maps is a free download, its not exactly putting people off. 6 is not much to spend to try it out, and in my expirence, people will try it no matter what I say. Besides, if they dont then Nokia should make an effort to improve Maps so that they do.

Remember, AAS is not a biased site, so even critical opinions can be posted.

Last edited by bartmanekul; 24-06-2008 at 12:24 AM.
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  #7  
Old 24-06-2008, 06:01 AM
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Besides, that to search online for an address takes 2 Kb or less data, what can't be expensive, and you can search in offline mode as well in Nokia Maps 2 too i don't have further comments.

Just one more:
I believe that you've tried all the satnav apps so far and all of them are better than Nokia Maps. Your post is still MORE THAN CRITICAL!!! I'm sure that you are in contact with other developers, that's why you promote in fact their products on AAS.

At least as a satnav professional you could tell us beginners which is the best satnav app for Nokia phones.

Please help us!
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  #8  
Old 24-06-2008, 08:16 AM
bartmanekul bartmanekul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swingerman View Post
Besides, that to search online for an address takes 2 Kb or less data, what can't be expensive, and you can search in offline mode as well in Nokia Maps 2 too i don't have further comments.
But any use of data outside a dataplan (no matter how small) will involve a cost. Often theres a minimum that is used, for example even if you only use 2kb its charged as if you use 500kb.

And the offline search doesnt work very well, its more or less pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingerman View Post
Just one more:
I believe that you've tried all the satnav apps so far and all of them are better than Nokia Maps. Your post is still MORE THAN CRITICAL!!! I'm sure that you are in contact with other developers, that's why you promote in fact their products on AAS.
Thats a good one! While I am in contact with ALK (Copilot), Garmin and Sygic, my opinions are certainly not influanced in anyway. If you had a look at more of my posts, you would understand this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingerman View Post
At least as a satnav professional you could tell us beginners which is the best satnav app for Nokia phones.

Please help us!
But I cant, thats impossible. Its just like mobiles themselves, people have different tastes. My favourite is Garmin, partly because of the peerpoints function. But theres lots of people who hate Garmin, and like Route66. And route66 I dont like.

What I do is explain the functionality and how it works as much as I can, rather than just saying 'I thought it was good', because opinions can vary.

Basically give as much information as I can, and then let people decide which is best for them.

I can assure you Im not under any sort of pressure to give a good review/opinion of a satnav from any other source than myself. The reason Im so into mobile satnav is because I want to find the best one. Being bribed wouldnt help that much

  #9  
Old 24-06-2008, 08:44 AM
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Thanks for your replies. I still respect your opinion, however your original post did not help in fact anybody to choose Nokia Maps. It helped only to don't choose it.

Thanks again. I don't see any further point to comment your post.

Respect,
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:49 AM
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Excellent review, spot on. Completely agree and simply just the lack of custom POI's alone is enough to make me look else where.

Why in the later half of 2008 are Nokia still not including what has basically been a standard feature in just about every sat nav software for years now?

I need the ability to have speed camera alerts. The cost of a software package that supports custom POI's will be cheaper than a speeding fine.

Poor show Nokia, once again you seem to be about 2 years behind everyone else.

  #11  
Old 15-09-2008, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartmanekul View Post
This rant was a long time coming.

The basic model of maps is actually very good. A subscription based model isnt new, but one where you can download the maps in advance is. This gives it a huge plus over existing ones like Wayfinder. Not having to use data. In theory.

Nokia are undeniably in the best position for implimenting satnav on phones. They have the content (bought Navteq, one of the main mapping companies), they have the resources, and they have the ease of being able to integrate it easily into their phones.

But its currently a big failure. Its far from being near as functional as a PND, it lacks integration of the phones and software, and on top of all that, its far too expensive.


Heres is a list of failings/improvments:


Integration. The fact its from Nokia and run on S60 amazes me with the total lack of integration. A good example is that you cannot send your location or favourites as a navigatable option to others with maps. Comeon Nokia, every phone is set to have Maps installed, this function is so incrediably useful. Garmin have peerpoints, which is where you first select a location, anything from a new location, to a favourite or current location, and send it via text. This then appears in your peerpoints, and you can do what you like with it, view on map, add to favourites or navigate to it.

There was a very good idea by someone else on this forum. Can you use the exif data from geotagged pictures to navigate to? How brilliant is that, and easy? If it detects that it has GPS co-ords in the exif data of a picture, why not add an option in the options list that can do something like add it as a favourite to your Maps favourites? How good would it be for someone to send you a picture of a nice place via MMS, and you can navigate to it? or download a picture from a website and navigate to it?

Its things like that which make all the integration work, and for it to actually seem integrated, rather than just another app in the list. And since Nokia have also introduced the geotagger to all future phones with GPS, they should have thought of it before someone else.


The need to be online. I really dont understand why it has to be online to do so much. You have to be online to do a full postcode search. You have to be online to get a full POI result. And apperently, being online increases the speed accuracy of route calculation.

While data is becoming more affordable, Nokia are pushing GPS into lower cost handsets, and even some S40 devices which are very cheap. There is quite a lot of people who get charged for each use of data, and dont want to be charged each time when they look for a location.

POI lists and postcodes and addresses are so tiny in space theres no reason to keep them online only. Make them available via update, in the same way as updating maps. Or, even better, make it an option to download these lists over the air, since they will be small in size.

Just something other than making people rely on using data. I have seen quite a few people now say that Maps isnt viable for them since it requires data to do almost anything. Feels like the whole effort of making the maps themselves downloadable pointless.


Cost. I have ranted about cost before, but its obviously wrong. Almost everyone I speak to says its too much. And before people say that its because you dont have to pay for map updates, I understand this.

I also understand that by using the subscription model you can pay far less than traditional satnav. And obviously, have the bonus of updated maps, the best of both worlds.

However, I object not just to the price of the subscription, but mainly the options.

Touted as very handy for occasional use, what on earth is the point in just having a minimum of a month? Day, week and fortnightly would be of vast more use than the current options. After all, thats when your most likely to use it, when your on holiday or travelling away. Or just a day trip.

Generally, the more you buy of something, the better value you get. So why is the 3 month option cost more than the 1 month option? By that I mean if you buy the 3 month option, it costs more than just renewing the monthly one twice.

Yearly costs are a joke. If Nokia want to make this attractive to those who dislike subscription models (which there are a lot of), then make some better options for longer periods. The yearly is way to expensive, and they have got rid of the 3 year option.


Proper functionality. Nokia claims its as functional as your average PND. Its not, by a long shot. For starters, the traffic does not alert you to accidents and the like. Not much good.

And its missing something which is seen as fundamental to PNDs by many people. The ability to have speed camera alerts. Since it doesnt offer this as a paid for option, nor does it support custom POI of interest, speed cam alerts are not possible with Maps.


I want to like Nokia maps. But I keep finding so much wrong with it, and so lacking in functionality Im put off paying the extremely high prices. I daresay much is in the pipeline, but they had better sort out these issues fast before all the new devices come out (6220 classic, 6210 navigator, N96, N78 etc) with Maps already onboard.

I estimate many more people joining forums and asking questions like 'data usage with maps'.
Totally agree with you here. thats why I forked out around 100 for Tomtom Navigator 6 for my N95 8 gb .Please don't start the "It's not compatible with the internal gps "arguement - I have an external bluetooth GPS and am happy to use it .
I used to have a cracked(sorry) version and decided that after trying it extensively throughout the UK I was more than happy with the interface and the route planning (Important when you drive a 44 ton truck for a living).
The constant need to go online for searches and the need to have a reception to transmit and receive data (not everywhere has a signal yet)was the number one reason for not purchasing Nokia Maps followed by the cost of the yearly subscription.
Navigator 6 with full maps ,postcodes, POI's and speed cameras for Western Europe fully loaded on the phone = aroung 1 GB and no call to go online ever (unless you want weather or traffic info- thats what I use the radio for and it's free as well )
100 as a one off payment versus data charges every month+ navigation add ons every year/ 3 months / Week - I know which one is cheaper for me .

Last edited by beefyn70; 15-09-2008 at 12:04 AM.

  #12  
Old 15-09-2008, 12:15 AM
bartmanekul bartmanekul is offline
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Glad to see people still read this

Im hoping Nokia are working on sorting some of these things, Id be extremely suprised if they are not.

  #13  
Old 17-09-2008, 07:10 AM
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I totally agree with your views on Nokia Maps Bart. I want to like the product, have given it a very good try, but am frustrated by the shortcomings - and the price!

Good post well done!

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