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  #16  
Old 21-01-2009, 03:17 PM
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Rafe Rafe is offline
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We have mentioned this to various people. I know that the necessary team saw the original article you mention (I think quite a few people internally forwarded it to them).

Nokia are aware of the issues and it is fairly obvious there will be developments in this area soon. However there's nothing in the way of details (Nokia folk are usually well media trained and don't give much away).

Some of the problems with Download do have reasonable(ish) explanations too. Most people do underestimate how hard it is to deliver this sort of thing within the context of how / where Nokia operates.

Despite this and the fact we know it being fixed / worked on it's not going to stop us saying it's still not good enough. Needless to say we'll probably complain about whatever comes next too.
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Old 21-01-2009, 03:22 PM
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If they are working on it, I hope it will be fully integrated into ovi and will be platform independent (unlike the new maps service, which is really great _if_ you have windows). And it can't be that impossible to achieve if most of its competitors (Apple, RIM, Microsoft, Google) are going down this road.

  #18  
Old 21-01-2009, 05:03 PM
viipottaja viipottaja is offline
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Rafe, thanks a lot for your quick response! I kinda suspected that you have talked to them and that it is more complicated than most realise. Having said that, I would LOVE you to elaborate (obviously in an article if possible, but if not, in this comment thread) on what are the factors that make it more complicated than most think? I think that would be very educational (certainly for me at least)!

  #19  
Old 21-01-2009, 06:02 PM
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At viipottaja's request here are some of the reasons:

Difficulty in making it available in multiple markets. There are different legal requirements for each market with this sort of thing. We already see this with a lot of Noki's Ovi services. There's obvious benefits to have something simpler (more controlled) that you can have available in all markets (Download! as it is now). It's not just legal requirements either - think about localisation in terms of language, terms and conditions, currencies, payment processing etc etc. Creating a app store platform that is flexible enough to deal with this sort of thing is hard...

Variances within applications - there's multiple way developers collect money - be it via OpenBit's LM or similar, via aggregators, via operators... Chances are for a store to work you'll have to create a standard way of doing payments. Developers will have to support that. Trials? Subscriptions? How does this play against what's in the marketplace already? [N.B. Only freeware in Android marketplace at launch]

You have to partner with people and there is a cost to that. It's quite easy to this and be transparent about it and of low cost when you're delivering to a limied market. BUT it will go up the more devices you have on the market and will go up as your ecosystem get more complex. Nokia's mobile ecosystem is enormous... Yes this is a bit of cop out, but it's also true.

Multiple devices - it harder to do with multiple devices - more testing (yes most things will just work, but not always... This is an area where legacy and wide platform reach hurts.

Operators - Nokia still sells most of its phone trough operators / carriers. They are the main customers and what they want goes. They're unlikely to approve of app stores on lower end phones, especially on devices where they have their own download type offering (even if it is just cruddy Java stuff). Nokia will therefore be more inclined to spend time and money on the requirements they do want (e.g. look at the fuss Ovi has and is still causing). Some operators will even remove Download (and that was designed to keep them happy by including pSMS revenue)! I personally suspect this is the biggest single reason Nokia hasn't done much in this area until a year ago. Of course once the success of the app store became apparent clearly a response was needed... but it will take time, and the operator issue is still the elephant in the room.

Ironically it's actually easier for new entrants focused on the high end (Android, iPhone) as there's no pre-existing framework i.e. its not something new, its part of the package...

In the Symban World apps stores have kind of fallen between the responsibility of Symbian Ltd., Manufacturers (like Nokia), and operators. All would probably liek to do them, but it seems to me that there hasn't been the will.

That said it should be possible, but its not a simple case of taking a list of applications and making them available in a client.

Please note this isn't intended to be complete and its off the cuff rather than carefully written (and there's probably stuff missing).
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  #20  
Old 21-01-2009, 07:42 PM
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While you no doubt have a point, I also think it's a bit of a cop-out.

Nokia are a European company and, thanks to the EU, there is more-or-less a single market and set of laws for all Western and Central European countries. It would be relatively easy for Nokia to create an online store for Europe; if Apple have managed it, then I'm sure Nokia could manage it if they were truly interested.

My impression is that they're not that bothered, otherwise they would have already introduced something akin to the Apple App Store. Let's face it, they could make all the Beta Labs apps available via Download! if they could be bothered; that would already be a great improvement to what's currently on offer....

  #21  
Old 21-01-2009, 08:37 PM
sjhong sjhong is offline
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Funny how nobody mentioned the elephant in the room (if I missed a comment, please forgive me), the Apple App Store. What an innovative idea, huh? 500 million downloads in 6 months (compared to 100 million downloads in 10 years for Handango).

The Apple Store is awesome and provides such a level of exposition to developers that they can afford to charge less for their products. A game like Marble Revolution would cost something like 99 cents at the Apple Store.

Nokia has to dump the Download! altogether and start from scratch and come up with something like the Apple Store. More and more I see myself downloading apps for my iPod Touch and less for my N95. One day, I may dump the N95 and just go for an iPhone (well, of course they would have to tweak it a little bit and improve the camera).

  #22  
Old 21-01-2009, 10:50 PM
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sjhong - agreed - it's a very good experience. Part of the reason Download is attracting more complaints is because of the iPhone and G1 app stores. That said they both have their own problems too.

buster - I probably should have emphasized the time element more, but yes they could have probably done more in the interim. Then again, as edge users, we're far more aware of these things. The vast majority of Nokia's customers will not notice... on the other hand those self same people could create a support nightmare if beta apps were offered. I suppose this is just another example of how things are more complex in the real world that we would really like.
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  #23  
Old 21-01-2009, 11:13 PM
Tzer2 Tzer2 is offline
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As Rafe points out, retailing software online is not a simple matter, and network operators may also cause complications. Even if you can do something technically, there may be a legal/financial nightmare in actually deploying it on phones.

BUT... the bottom line is that Nokia already has deployed much better on-phone shops such as Nokia Maps, Nokia Music and N-Gage, all of which are streets ahead of Download, and which are bundled with phones in their firmware.

Why can't Download be at least as good as Maps, NMS or N-Gage? I don't think that's an unreasonable demand.

And why isn't Download better integrated with Ovi services? Why can't Download act as a gateway to NMS tracks as ringtones for example, or offer N-Gage games? Why does Download have older versions of Nokia's own apps, when newer versions are already available?

All other parts of S60 and Ovi have constantly evolved and improved over the years, but Download now is the same as Download when it began. There's just no excuse for that situation. Everything else in S60 5th Edition is greatly improved or going in the right direction, but Download has stood completely still.

  #24  
Old 22-01-2009, 12:05 AM
sjhong sjhong is offline
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@rafe:
Whatever problems the iTunes store may have, they don't come close to eclipsing its virtues (I can't say anything about the Android store since I don't own a G1). Some good points that Nokia/Symbian should study hard:
- ALL apps available for iPhone/iPod Touch are there (not counting the jailbroken ones).
- The prices are extremely accessible (I see this as the most important point).
- When you download an app, it's yours and tied to your account, not to your device.
- When the developer updates the app, it gets updated in your device as well.

  #25  
Old 22-01-2009, 08:24 AM
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The other company that has a brilliant online store is TomTom.
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  #26  
Old 22-01-2009, 09:12 AM
svdwal svdwal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjhong View Post
Funny how nobody mentioned the elephant in the room (if I missed a comment, please forgive me), the Apple App Store. What an innovative idea, huh? 500 million downloads in 6 months (compared to 100 million downloads in 10 years for Handango).

The Apple Store is awesome and provides such a level of exposition to developers that they can afford to charge less for their products. A game like Marble Revolution would cost something like 99 cents at the Apple Store.
Hear hear. The difference between the 6 months 500 million downloads from AppStore and the 10 year 100 million downloads from Handango is staggering. AFAIK no Symbian/RIM/Palm/WinMO releated site has ever released download figures until Apple started to do so, this is a good sign of the industry becoming more transparent.

And it is now absolutely clear that AppStore is where the money is right now.
And not only for applications. Imagine what would happen if you buy ringtones and wallpapers like that. Not by using SMS subscription schemes that everybody hates. Why on earth are device manufacturers leaving all that money lying on the table?

  #27  
Old 22-01-2009, 01:57 PM
bikerrich bikerrich is offline
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illegal misrepresentation

simple fact, you don't need to be a lawyer to understand, if something is not free, you cannot represent it as free. being new to symbian, coming from the winmo world, i am presently enjoying a 5800, which i bought because of the touch screen (very nice), but it needs some extra software to make it totally useful to me to read office docs and pdf's. having been pointed to download by today's email, i pushed the button and, lo and behold, there was a pdf reader, marked as "free" which i then downloaded only to discover that it's a fifteen day trial and then pay or perish. accordingly, it is not "free" it is "trial". for a number of reasons, misrepresentation amongst them, there is an action lying here. if you live in the usa, and have had the same experience whether with the 5800 or any other nokia phone, contact me: rt@lawyer.com.

  #28  
Old 22-01-2009, 02:57 PM
bikerrich bikerrich is offline
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download scam

apropos my previous message, if you reside in the usa and have been victimized by the nokia download "free" misrepresentation, please use new email: nokiascam@gmail.com. thanks.

  #29  
Old 22-01-2009, 04:55 PM
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[quote=svdwal;408534]Hear hear. The difference between the 6 months 500 million downloads from AppStore and the 10 year 100 million downloads from Handango is staggering./QUOTE]

Apps store has done amazingly well, but those figures are pretty silly comparisons.

Handangos 100 million is literally all from sold software. How much of that 500 million is free fart programs, ebooks, free games, 0,99 games and so forth?


[quote=svdwal;408534
And it is now absolutely clear that AppStore is where the money is right now.
And not only for applications. Imagine what would happen if you buy ringtones and wallpapers like that. Not by using SMS subscription schemes that everybody hates. Why on earth are device manufacturers leaving all that money lying on the table?[/QUOTE]

Apple isn't making any money directly with app store either. This was confirmed by Apple itself when their Q3 2008 financial where released. It is basicly the same situation that Aple has had with their music store. I other words, Apple's music/software stores operate on break even or tiny profit basis. Those stores are just used to drive hardware sales.

  #30  
Old 23-01-2009, 08:07 AM
ltv ltv is offline
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Tzer2,

I got a chance to take a look at the 5800 XPressMusic Download app.
While all the issues that you have highlighted are real and the essential problems related to the business model and content still remain, I feel it would have been only fair to mention that there have been some major additions to the client (I use an e90, so I am not sure if the new features that I see in the XpressMusic had already been introduced in some other recent phone)

Compared to the e90, the refresh is about an order of magnitude faster.
The folder structuring is not completely insane - even in the screenshot you have included.
The new download manager is quite useful :
- the ability to download files in the background and to download multiple files at once.
- The progress display for each file is nice.
- The acts of downloading and installing are now separate - so you can first download a file and choose to install it as many times as you want.
- there are still a few quirks : if a download does not complete successfully, download thinks the file is already there, so it doesn't try to download it again. You have to remove ALL content from download and do a refresh to make it download the file again.

I don't feel "Download in S60 5th Edition is slightly better in some ways, faster and more reliable" is an accurate description. IMHO Nokia has put in some real effort into improving their client software.

No offence....
 

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