All About Symbian - Nokia (S60) and Sony Ericsson (UIQ) smartphones unwrapped

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  #16  
Old 24-08-2010, 12:01 PM
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The truth is that the popularity of App store and then Android market is waking up Symbian users to the possibilities of buying apps. And the Ovi store use show the figures ramping up. Symbian is the next rich seam. There will be a window of opportunity, before it too gets saturated.
Bang on right there. Well said. I pity any developers that refuse to accept this. And the even better thing is with Symbian sales currently at a rate of over 300,000/day (FAR in advance of any other platform) which is over 100 million / year, not to mention a FAR bigger market share already, that window of opportunity is going to be the biggest and longest you've ever seen. I can't see saturation happening for a LOOOONG time. Even small developers with poor marketing and other competition for their app are in with a much better chance simply due to the huge numbers of potential customers involved.

  #17  
Old 24-08-2010, 02:54 PM
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Pro Nokia/Symbian folks keep pointing to the millions upon millions of Nokia/Symbian loaded devices, but they fail to state that most of these devices are dumbphones. Or mid-range phones, with access to Ovi store tacked on as an afterthought. The profile and habits of these users, combined with the subpar Ovi store experience, simply does not translate to download or profits for developers.

Sure you can keep developing for Symbian, but freeware and inane apps only. Just don't expect serious money from paid apps. The world will move on with iOS, Android and even Nokia's new baby Meego. Even Microsoft is hard at work at WinMo 7 , don't be surprised if they have an app store of their own using the leverage of the Windows platform.

Look at how the Nokia N8's getting delayed, from Q1 2010 to almost Q4 2010. Why? The S^3 is not ready for primetime. Also, you can't use the 'we decide when it's ready' strategy (i.e. Blizzard Games style). Things and technology move blazing fast in the world of mobile devices. A lot of things can happen in just a few months.

Symbian is going the way of the dinosaur in the smartphone realm. It will still power low end and mid range phones, but that's it. The truth hurts, but you must accept it.

  #18  
Old 24-08-2010, 03:46 PM
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Pro Nokia/Symbian folks keep pointing to the millions upon millions of Nokia/Symbian loaded devices, but they fail to state that most of these devices are dumbphones.

[blah blah blah]

Symbian is going the way of the dinosaur in the smartphone realm. It will still power low end and mid range phones, but that's it. The truth hurts, but you must accept it.
Love it - a good attempt at a fightback from an Android/iPhone fanboy. Given that everything you write is either untrue (Symbian = dumbphone!? What planet are you on?), misunderstanding or lies, I'll leave it there, but thanks for the comedy

  #19  
Old 24-08-2010, 03:57 PM
Jimmy1 Jimmy1 is offline
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Love it - a good attempt at a fightback from an Android/iPhone fanboy. Given that everything you write is either untrue (Symbian = dumbphone!? What planet are you on?), misunderstanding or lies, I'll leave it there, but thanks for the comedy
I think what he means is that people *use* Symbian phones like dumbphones: placing calls, some texting, playing mp3 files, maybe firing up a browser on a QVGA screen once in a while....and that's basically about it.

Sure, that's how some also use Android and the iPhone, but not many. If I buy a new smartphone, most people I know will ask me: "Oooh, what apps do you have for yours?"

I have a nephew that loves the iPod Touch his parents got him; he has apps so that he can read DC and Marvel Comics, play interactive learning games, video games and some music.

The chance for this type of use for Nokia devices is clearly for Meego. Symbian, though a smartphone platform, is most definitely small-button based-phone-centric.

The market is moving away from phone-centric smart phones, and towards do-all PDA/pocket computers, that include a phone as an additional 'app'.

  #20  
Old 24-08-2010, 09:18 PM
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If I buy a new smartphone, most people I know will ask me: "Oooh, what apps do you have for yours?"
...
The chance for this type of use for Nokia devices is clearly for Meego.
Oh yes? If what you say is even slightly true (it's completely wrong actually), then how do you explain the fact that several months ago Ovi Store was getting 1.7 million downloads a day (this figure is out of date, new figures which will be MUCH higher will be announced at Nokia World probably) and that Niklas Savander, Nokia Vice President said recently that 75% of those downloads were apps? And we also know that most are not S40 apps. Also quite a lot of Symbian apps on Ovi Store have had well over a million DLs for one app, with one developer getting over 25 million DLs across all their apps.

So - this proves that Nokia/Symbian users know their phone to be great for apps, and are buying them in the millions.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy1 View Post
Symbian, though a smartphone platform, is most definitely small-button based-phone-centric.
Oh yes? If that's even slightly true (again, completely wrong) how do you explain the fact that Nokia stated they were going to be the biggest selling manufacturer of touchscreen smartphones in the world and they have now achieved that, and that all of those sales are running Symbian? And that Symbian^3 and ^4 are even MORE touchscreen oriented, in fact have touchscreens as the primary input device?

Sorry mate, you are continuing the sort of absolute RUBBISH that gets spoken about Symbian and Nokia, and it needs to be stopped, and for once, the truth needs to be heard.

  #21  
Old 24-08-2010, 09:24 PM
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Sure, that's how some also use Android and the iPhone, but not many. If I buy a new smartphone, most people I know will ask me: "Oooh, what apps do you have for yours?"
Indeed, and that "ooh" is what is causing people to go looking for the Ovi Store to see what they can get.

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I have a nephew that loves the iPod Touch his parents got him; he has apps so that he can read DC and Marvel Comics, play interactive learning games, video games and some music.
Thanks for that little insight into your life. Very erm.... useful.

(wtf?!)

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The chance for this type of use for Nokia devices is clearly for Meego.
Nope. Qt. Meego is going to be for extreme gadgeteers. Normal humans with social lives will not want Meego.

[quote=Jimmy1;474427]
Symbian, though a smartphone platform, is most definitely small-button based-phone-centric.
[quote]

Symbian is based on EPOC32, which had touch screen capability way back in 1997. SE had their touch interfaces too. Way back. But none of them are relevant because Symbian is about to become ^3 and ^4 which most definitely stepping away from small button.


Symbian had a UI that was left behind by the iPhone and has been used on some poor hardware. It also had some different development techniques - mostly in the deprecated Avkon library.

Now it has an updated UI in Symbian ^3 and some decent hardware. Avkon is replaced by Qt.
Symbian ^4 will have a back-compatibility break, people who need to run existing apps will hopefull get versions for ^3.

So, having corrected its failings and gone open, what's wrong with Symbian now?

  #22  
Old 25-08-2010, 02:28 AM
Will81 Will81 is offline
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I think what he means is that people *use* Symbian phones like dumbphones: placing calls, some texting, playing mp3 files, maybe firing up a browser on a QVGA screen once in a while....and that's basically about it.
Yup. Completely agree with that. I bet that a large number of Nokia Symbian phone owners don't even know that you can download apps.

Quote:
Oh yes? If what you say is even slightly true (it's completely wrong actually), then how do you explain the fact that several months ago Ovi Store was getting 1.7 million downloads a day (this figure is out of date, new figures which will be MUCH higher will be announced at Nokia World probably)
And yet with Apple's far smaller smartphone market share (13% vs 38% for Nokia Symbian devices in Q2), it was getting around 10 millions downloads a day (Jan 2010 figure).

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Even small developers with poor marketing and other competition for their app are in with a much better chance simply due to the huge numbers of potential customers involved.
There is little doubt that there is potential for the Ovi Store to be the most popular mobile app store. Unfortunately Nokia has done little to boost consumer knowledge or the quality/number of apps in the store.

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So, having corrected its failings and gone open, what's wrong with Symbian now?
In the eyes of a developer, what sort of hardware should I be targeting? Should I limit my apps so that it will run on the (horrendously outdated) 400 MHz ARM11 devices without GPU acceleration like the current flagship, the N97?

What proportion of Symbian devices will be able to run high-end, graphically rich apps like Need for Speed, Brothers in Arms, NFL 11, FIFA World Cup, SimCity, etc?

What about non-touch Symbian devices? Doesn't Nokia sell more S60 3rd edition phones than 5th edition phones? What is S60 5th edition's market share in the smartphone market?

When are app updates going to be implemented in the Ovi Store? Is Nokia going to be actively promoting the Ovi Store to consumers like Apple?
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  #23  
Old 25-08-2010, 05:59 AM
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And yet with Apple's far smaller smartphone market share (13% vs 38% for Nokia Symbian devices in Q2), it was getting around 10 millions downloads a day (Jan 2010 figure).
As an iPhone owner I have downloaded and deleted literally dozens of free apps from app store that frankly have been a waste of my time. Many of these are demos of paid apps, which I have been deterred from paying for. It takes a very special app to be worth downloading and keeping, and even more special to be worth paying for and there are not many of those in the app store.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Will81 View Post

In the eyes of a developer, what sort of hardware should I be targeting? Should I limit my apps so that it will run on the (horrendously outdated) 400 MHz ARM11 devices without GPU acceleration like the current flagship, the N97?
The question was, "having corrected its failings", failings including running poor hardware by Nokia (a decision to use poor hardware is not a fault of Symbian). The developer should be looking at Qt.

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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
What proportion of Symbian devices will be able to run high-end, graphically rich apps like Need for Speed, Brothers in Arms, NFL 11, FIFA World Cup, SimCity, etc?
That's a very games-centric view. I differentiate games apps and smartphone apps. Developers are not all games developers and it remains to be seen how devices like N8 will perform as a games platform, I don't think that games or anything N-Gage like has been the focus. Personally, like most adults, I don't bother with any games.

  #24  
Old 25-08-2010, 04:16 PM
Will81 Will81 is offline
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As an iPhone owner I have downloaded and deleted literally dozens of free apps from app store that frankly have been a waste of my time. Many of these are demos of paid apps, which I have been deterred from paying for. It takes a very special app to be worth downloading and keeping, and even more special to be worth paying for and there are not many of those in the app store.
I have also downloaded and paid for several apps from the Apple App Store.

As a Nokia Symbian device owner I have also downloaded several free apps from the Ovi Store (after I got the damn thing working). How many paid apps have I downloaded? Zero. Zilch.

I don't think many people will argue with the fact that the iOS App Store contains more high-quality apps than any other mobile app store, There is a lot of crap in there (and Apple will need to address this issue soon) but with the huge range of apps in there, you're far more likely to find the app you want compared to the Ovi Store, Android Marketplace or BB App World.

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The question was, "having corrected its failings", failings including running poor hardware by Nokia (a decision to use poor hardware is not a fault of Symbian). The developer should be looking at Qt.
Yes while its true that Nokia and Symbian are in theory separate organisations, they obviously have a strong symbiotic relationship. If Nokia abandoned Symbian, it would wither away. The Symbian Foundation, IMHO, should mandate a minimum spec for each release (or class of device) just like Microsoft is doing with WP7 or Android is doing with Gingerbread.

A developer cannot simply develop software using Qt without knowing the hardware specs. You simply cannot build software if you don't know what hardware you're targeting.

iOS developers know exactly what hardware is available to them while other platforms have specified minimum specs (like WP7 Chassis 1 I mentioned earlier).

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That's a very games-centric view. I differentiate games apps and smartphone apps. Developers are not all games developers and it remains to be seen how devices like N8 will perform as a games platform, I don't think that games or anything N-Gage like has been the focus. Personally, like most adults, I don't bother with any games.
Firstly lets talk about 3D acceleration (or more specifically OpenGL ES 2.0 support).

Most iPhone users are adults.
The majority of the top 100 paid apps in the iOS App Store are games.
WP7 will have 60+ games on release.
WebOS has released its PDK for iPhone like gaming.
Android has released its NDK to allow far richer games. There is even talk of a Sony Ericsson PSP Android handset.

Don't you think it would be naive for Nokia to ignore the games market?

Graphically rich games can be enough to convince a lot people to spend lots of money on high-end phones, even if they don't end up playing a lot of games on the device. Nokia needs all the help it can get to attempt to regain the high-end market.

Plus graphically rich apps are not only limited to games. What about augmented reality apps, medical imaging viewers, 3D mapping, CAD?

Secondly what about 2D acceleration. Will all Symbian handsets from now on get 2D hardware acceleration? Will panning, zooming and scrolling be quick and smooth or the stuttery mess on current end devices?

  #25  
Old 26-08-2010, 06:02 AM
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A developer cannot simply develop software using Qt without knowing the hardware specs. You simply cannot build software if you don't know what hardware you're targeting.
No shit sherlock! That was a useful input.


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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post

Most iPhone users are adults.
The majority of the top 100 paid apps in the iOS App Store are games.
That's probably more a consequence of the iPod touch than the iPhone.

  #26  
Old 26-08-2010, 02:54 PM
Will81 Will81 is offline
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No shit sherlock! That was a useful input.
I was responding to your statement "The developer should be looking at Qt." as if somehow the Qt framework dictates to the developer what the hardware platform is like or what it is capable of.

A developing won't just be "looking at Qt".

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That's probably more a consequence of the iPod touch than the iPhone.
Really? Care to produce any figures to support that theory?

A survey of iPhone users showed that they spent an average of $80 on apps.

http://www.fiercemobilecontent.com/s...pps/2009-09-08

If iPhone users are primarily spending their $80 on purchasing non-game applications, why are games so prominent in the Top 100?

Anecdotally, I know a lot of people with iPhones (they're sold by every carrier here) and every single one has purchased several games. I know of two people with Symbian^1 handsets and neither have even downloaded anything from the Ovi Store.

Anyway even if your theory was true, do developers care? Apple created a device (the iPod Touch) that is more accessible to the public which can largely use the same apps as the iPhone. I'm sure the large software houses like EA, ngmoco, etc aren't complaining.

If Nokia were able to sell 50+ million MP3 player/tablet devices that can run Symbian^1 apps, Symbian developers would be ecstatic.

  #27  
Old 27-08-2010, 07:26 AM
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I was responding to your statement "The developer should be looking at Qt." as if somehow the Qt framework dictates to the developer what the hardware platform is like or what it is capable of.

A developing won't just be "looking at Qt".
And?

I don't believe I suggested that they would just be looking at Qt. It's a cross platform platform with much in common between devices. And if a company is going to sell a lot of different devices then I would say that this is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
Really? Care to produce any figures to support that theory?

A survey of iPhone users showed that they spent an average of $80 on apps.

http://www.fiercemobilecontent.com/s...pps/2009-09-08

If iPhone users are primarily spending their $80 on purchasing non-game applications, why are games so prominent in the Top 100?
Because the ipod touch owners are buying games.

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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
Anecdotally, I know a lot of people with iPhones (they're sold by every carrier here) and every single one has purchased several games. I know of two people with Symbian^1 handsets and neither have even downloaded anything from the Ovi Store.
Well good for you. One off anecdotes are always conclusive aren't they? I know several iPhone owners including me, and they are all shrewd enough to wait for free app days. Most of them are professionals and have very little inclination to waste time poking their palms on a trivial game. My own experience with games and other apps on the app store is to download free apps, and many are limited trials of paid apps, and 90% are deleted within a few minutes.
And using your own standards, look up the figures for Ovi store use. I don't use it myself - with my Symbian phones for the same reason I don't use App store anymore. The great thing about Symbian though, is not being restricted to the Ovi Store. My Profimail (which unlike games gets used all the time) came direct from LonelyCat - who are doing very well not having to pay any intermediary. It updates itself too.

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Originally Posted by Will81 View Post
Anyway even if your theory was true, do developers care? Apple created a device (the iPod Touch) that is more accessible to the public which can largely use the same apps as the iPhone. I'm sure the large software houses like EA, ngmoco, etc aren't complaining.

If Nokia were able to sell 50+ million MP3 player/tablet devices that can run Symbian^1 apps, Symbian developers would be ecstatic.
Well duh! Of course they would. Thanks for that useful addition. I'm sure Apple developers would be ecstatic if they didn't have to pay Apple so much to market their apps to non-jailbroken phones.

But at the end of it all, there are just a few developers making big money on phone apps regardless of platform. The greatest scope for

  #28  
Old 29-08-2010, 08:25 AM
Will81 Will81 is offline
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It's a cross platform platform with much in common between devices.
Really? So a 5233 (with no WiFi, no 3G, no graphics acceleration, resistive touch, 128MB RAM, a 434 MHz ARM11 CPU) is just like an N8?

Quote:
Because the ipod touch owners are buying games.
Care to provide a source for this information? Are you implying that iPhone users don't purchase games?

Quote:
And using your own standards, look up the figures for Ovi store use.
Nokia have not released in-depth statistics for the Ovi Store. However I bet that games feature prominently in the Top 100.

Quote:
I don't use it myself - with my Symbian phones for the same reason I don't use App store anymore. My Profimail (which unlike games gets used all the time) came direct from LonelyCat - who are doing very well not having to pay any intermediary. It updates itself too.
Most of the mobile app stores only take 30% which is a lot better than it used to be when online mobile software stores used to take over 50% (or more) of what users paid.

Yes Apple, Nokia, Microsoft, etc take a 30% cut but they also need to host your software, provide merchant facilities, basic marketing and in the case of Apple, an update service. I don't see too many developers complaining about the 30% cut Apple (or others) are taking.

I doubt most typical users will go searching the net for an application which is why a device app store has been adopted by all the smartphone platforms.

Quote:
Well duh! Of course they would. Thanks for that useful addition. I'm sure Apple developers would be ecstatic if they didn't have to pay Apple so much to market their apps to non-jailbroken phones.
And I was making the point that iOS developers don't care whether users are purchasing their apps for an iPhone or iPod Touch so long as someone is purchasing it.
 

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