All About Symbian - Nokia (S60) and Sony Ericsson (UIQ) smartphones unwrapped

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  #46  
Old 29-07-2010, 12:28 AM
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@rahulgarg, Cortex in the iphone 3gs vs the ARM11 in iphone 3g. Built on the same process. The Cortex consumes more power than the ARM11 when in use. However it process faster and allows it to back to idle earlier. Due to this, the Cortex actually less power overall than ARM11.

@rafii

iphone have had 2D acceleration since inception so ScreenPlay in Symbian^3 is only catching up now 3 years later.

... What SOC doesn't hardware decode audio/video. And if you look, the BMC2727 doesn't have baseband and gps cores built in unlike Snapdragon.

Broadcom's SOC does have stacked ram. But its only that. Packaged in to save costs and not for performance reasons like the x360 edram for example.

While its nice to have a fast GPU, u also need a fast FPU to pair it with. The ARM11's optional FPU is not so hot compared to unit(with new NEON instruction set too) built into Cortex A8s.

The super sensor in the N8 isn't so super when compared to backside illuminated sensor used in the iphone 4. Larger yes but only due to more megapixels but not as sensitive as Omnivision part Apple uses.

Yes N8 uses nHD to keep compatibility but the problem is Android and Iphone have higher resolutions and also manage to keep apps compatible because they were designed that way from the start. Besides symbian^1 have the lowest amount of available apps so keeping compatibility doesn't make sense anyway.

  #47  
Old 29-07-2010, 01:36 AM
Zaqfalcon Zaqfalcon is offline
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Regarding the Satio, which is the phone I use, the other flaws you didn't mention are the lack of internal memory and the infernal proprietary headphone/charging/connection port. However; I opted for the Satio as I wanted to stay with Symbian at least, if not Nokia (the N97 was a no), having previously used the N95, and wanted a phone with great photography capabilities; this I'm glad to say I'm still very happy with. Since owning the phone I've also found that the Play Now app store is utterly pathetic (in Australia at least?) and would now love to have access to Ovi, this is talked about elsewhere on here.

If the N8 had been available at the time (December 09) or promised for shortly thereafter I would definitely have gone for it and would probably be a happier camper for a long time. More's the pity it wasn't and is still some way off it seems. I fear that although in terms of the hardware attributes it may at last be (just about) the touchscreen smartphone perfected (or 'Done Right' if you like), it will be at least six months too late and may appear, if not oudated as such, probably 'old hat'. If it had been available in Q1 or 2 of this year I think it would have dominated this sector, trounced the opposition and made the iPhone 4 look rather sad. As it is I think many people will skip it and wait to see what Santa brings us in 2011.

  #48  
Old 29-07-2010, 03:34 AM
KPO'M
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Yes, I know Android 2.2 can do it as well, only problem is, if I upgrade the Nexus to 2.2, half of the apps do not work anymore. Now that is utter crap!

No, man. I'll stick with Symbian, and specifically I am looking forward to the N8!
What apps are you running? I have had no problems with any of my apps after upgrading to 2.2. From what I've seen, Android developers are pretty good at pushing out updates to fix unexpected incompatibilities.

I used several Nokia phones (N95, N85, N97, and the N900), switched to a Nexus One in January, and haven't looked back. As an investor in Nokia, I want N8 to be a hit, but I'm definitely taking a "prove it to me" attitude.

  #49  
Old 29-07-2010, 07:18 AM
rafiii rafiii is offline
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@rahulgarg
Yeah I totally agree with you in term of web performance the N8 is going to have a ahrd time against the other smartphones. At least we can expect better performance than s60 v5 but certainly not iphone4 level.
I have a 5800 so I know how slow the WRT apps can be I don't even talk about flash content, that's just a joke on such CPU

My only hope here is that the hardware acceleration will help, but I know it won't do miracles. However from what I saw on the video from KomorkomaniaBlog, it seems more than acceptable.

Power management is the real mystery. We'll see, although I'm not so worried for multimedia use.

@unregistered
Agreed, ARM11 FPU is not very sexy compared to NEON, but will it be enough to keep the GPU afloat? We'll see.

About the sensors:
You're right, a pixel of the iPhone4 is a bit more sensitive than a pixel of the N8 (at least in theory). But the iphone4 can't capture light that wasn't there at first. The Xenon flash is going to make a huge difference compared to the iphone4 LED. And even without flash, the N8 capture more photon since le sensor is bigger. So I don't know, but it looks like the N8 wins this one.

  #50  
Old 29-07-2010, 07:28 AM
clonmult clonmult is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
@rahulgarg, Cortex in the iphone 3gs vs the ARM11 in iphone 3g. Built on the same process. The Cortex consumes more power than the ARM11 when in use. However it process faster and allows it to back to idle earlier. Due to this, the Cortex actually less power overall than ARM11.

@rafii

iphone have had 2D acceleration since inception so ScreenPlay in Symbian^3 is only catching up now 3 years later.

... What SOC doesn't hardware decode audio/video. And if you look, the BMC2727 doesn't have baseband and gps cores built in unlike Snapdragon.

Broadcom's SOC does have stacked ram. But its only that. Packaged in to save costs and not for performance reasons like the x360 edram for example.

While its nice to have a fast GPU, u also need a fast FPU to pair it with. The ARM11's optional FPU is not so hot compared to unit(with new NEON instruction set too) built into Cortex A8s.

The super sensor in the N8 isn't so super when compared to backside illuminated sensor used in the iphone 4. Larger yes but only due to more megapixels but not as sensitive as Omnivision part Apple uses.

Yes N8 uses nHD to keep compatibility but the problem is Android and Iphone have higher resolutions and also manage to keep apps compatible because they were designed that way from the start. Besides symbian^1 have the lowest amount of available apps so keeping compatibility doesn't make sense anyway.
In no particular order ....
1. Number of apps. So what if there are so many tens/hundreds/thousands of apps for a device - that shouldn't really be a deciding factor.
2. I'd be willing to bet that larger sensor size, with a well designed lens, and a decent flash will give the N8 an advantage of the backlit sensor in the iPhone 4.
3. How often is a FPU used in day to day operations? Probably not that much. The GPU is arguably more usable.
4. N95 - that had 3D accelerated video before the iPhone. Okay, Nokia dropped the GPU (stupid!), but they're definitely way past having caught up.

As an example of the CPU/GPU blend - I'm running an ION based netbook at home. Despite only having a lowly N270 CPU, due to a decent GPU, it can actually handle 3D gaming quite well. Much better than dual core machines with integrated graphics.

But as none of us here have actually used the N8 (or at least none can say that they've used it), and its not quite ready for release, all of this is just irritiating/idle speculation.

I really am getting a feeling that Nokia have basically got it right with the N8. Eldars "review" was of a very early variant, and doesn't count. Everything else I've seen of it makes it sound very interesting.

And the fact that I can hook it up to a HD TV, connect up a bluetooth mouse, and use a PHONE (!!!!) as a media center if I were so inclined is qutie intriguing.

  #51  
Old 29-07-2010, 09:38 AM
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There's a lot of crap being written about needing high res screens. I have an iPhone 4 and an iPhone 3G and apart from looking nice I have found no practical benefit to the high res screen on the 4 with such a small display. Just another stupid spec numbers race to catch gullible consumers without a capacity for reasoned thought. Pointless pissing contests are for suckers.

  #52  
Old 29-07-2010, 10:20 AM
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There's a lot of crap being written about needing high res screens. I have an iPhone 4 and an iPhone 3G and apart from looking nice I have found no practical benefit to the high res screen on the 4 with such a small display. Just another stupid spec numbers race to catch gullible consumers without a capacity for reasoned thought. Pointless pissing contests are for suckers.
No practical benefit?

Try using Google Maps or any GPS application that draws a map, the additional resolution means you can read more detail (like street names, etc) even when zoomed further out.

Another example? Try using a remote desktop client to access your home or office PC. 800 pixels makes all the difference.

Another? Avoid sideways scrolling and constant zooming in/out on websites that aren't optimised for mobiles.

800+ is the new standard, Nokia are (once again) well behind the curve.

  #53  
Old 29-07-2010, 10:59 AM
nuno123 nuno123 is offline
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Of the older devices, Steve flagged 5 with firmware problems.

It's that the one big question we have for the N8 folk? As in: for how long will you be supporting the phone?

  #54  
Old 29-07-2010, 12:32 PM
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I've been reading the memory comments by Rafe.

The lack of ram have nothing to do with symbian. Nor is it hardware. Its only a problem on chipsets/socs that Nokia choose to use.

So the question becomes why did Nokia decide to source parts from those vendors.

  #55  
Old 29-07-2010, 01:39 PM
guizzy guizzy is offline
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No practical benefit?

Try using Google Maps or any GPS application that draws a map, the additional resolution means you can read more detail (like street names, etc) even when zoomed further out.

Another example? Try using a remote desktop client to access your home or office PC. 800 pixels makes all the difference.

Another? Avoid sideways scrolling and constant zooming in/out on websites that aren't optimised for mobiles.

800+ is the new standard, Nokia are (once again) well behind the curve.
On a 4" + screen, I can see that being possible. But even if the higher resolution makes it possible to read tiny text on a 3,5" screen, it doesn't make the text actually bigger or comfortable to read. It's ruinous for the eyes to concentrate on text that small (6pt or less), especially on a backlit screen!

Sure, it'd be nice if everything was all high res, all the time. A 1080p resolution screen in our pockets. But the very marginal benefits just aren't worth much of the effort and price this would command. If you read text that tiny on a regular basis, you'd better just bring along a magnifier, because you'll be having eye strain issues before long. The rest of us, we'll use a zoom feature.

Last edited by guizzy; 29-07-2010 at 01:42 PM.

  #56  
Old 29-07-2010, 02:07 PM
clonmult clonmult is offline
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Originally Posted by guizzy View Post
On a 4" + screen, I can see that being possible. But even if the higher resolution makes it possible to read tiny text on a 3,5" screen, it doesn't make the text actually bigger or comfortable to read. It's ruinous for the eyes to concentrate on text that small (6pt or less), especially on a backlit screen!

Sure, it'd be nice if everything was all high res, all the time. A 1080p resolution screen in our pockets. But the very marginal benefits just aren't worth much of the effort and price this would command. If you read text that tiny on a regular basis, you'd better just bring along a magnifier, because you'll be having eye strain issues before long. The rest of us, we'll use a zoom feature.
+1

I've got a regular laptop with a 15" 1280x800 screen. Also a netbook with an 11.6" 1366x768 screen - higher resolution, much smaller. My eyesight is quite good, and using the standard windows fonts makes for damnably small text. Although it does do a damn good job with 720p video ....

Aye, most people will use zoom, much easier than having to squint at your phone/satnav device whilst its perched on the dashboard.

  #57  
Old 29-07-2010, 03:50 PM
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>The resolution of the iPhone 4 is in fact just 480x360, dimensions are calculated in Points (1 >Point=2 Pixel), a "real" 960x640 resolution wouldn't make sense on a 3.5" display. The high >physical resolution is not used to display more information (as on the iPad), but to get a better >sharpness.

I thought long and hard about what on earth you're trying to say.

Well yes the iphone 4 has a 960x640 resolution to keep compatibility with third party apps that use bitmaps/custom menus designed for 480x360 that have not been fully upgraded to take advantage of the new display.

But even 3rd party apps that haven't been retrofited, if they use the iphone api menu calls for stuff like too bars/menu bars ... etc, benefit from 960x640 as the text is drawn 960x640 instead 480x360.

The iPhone screen prior to the iPhone 4 was actually 480x320. iPhone 4 doubles it exactly so that old apps just double up to run full screen. ie. 1 pixel at 480x320 is 4 pixels in a square on the iPhone 4.

However, since much of the artwork is vector artwork, not bitmaps, those scale up smoother than a rough x2 bitmap scaling would suggest. Fonts in particular scale up much smoother.

The upshot is that the EFFECTIVE size of elements of the display of the iPhone 4 is EXACTLY the same as the old model but much sharper. In the context of browsing a web page, the fonts are smoother but the JPEGs are doubled up (unless you supply 300dpi+ artwork using Webkit CSS media queries), otherwise you've got exactly the same web page rendering. You don't see any more of the page on the screen. It's still effectively a 480x320 viewport onto the page, not a 960x640 viewport.

See http://globalmoxie.com/blog/designin...-display.shtml for an explanation.

On the N8 I don't think they scale content at all so you'll actually see MORE of a web page because the viewport is 640x360 at 1:1 pixel ratio instead of the iPhone's effective 480x320 view. You could of course zoom out on the iPhone if you can read the text still at half the actual size.

The usability of the web browser on each probably has more of a bearing on this than the screen resolution and there Apple are definitely winning. S60's browser needs some work.

  #58  
Old 29-07-2010, 04:50 PM
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No practical benefit?

Try using Google Maps or any GPS application that draws a map, the additional resolution means you can read more detail (like street names, etc) even when zoomed further out.

Another example? Try using a remote desktop client to access your home or office PC. 800 pixels makes all the difference.

Another? Avoid sideways scrolling and constant zooming in/out on websites that aren't optimised for mobiles.

800+ is the new standard, Nokia are (once again) well behind the curve.
Nope. I've tried 1 and 3 on the iPhone 4 and small text is small text. It looks a bit nicer on the 4 but in practical terms it's no more usable. If that's the best you can offer then the prosecution rests. Spec numbers for ignorant mugs.

  #59  
Old 29-07-2010, 05:36 PM
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To Unregistered@3:50pm at 2 posts up.

You sad it way better than I did. And yes I goofed on the 480x360 part. But I blame RIM though as they do both 480x360 and 480x320.
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  #60  
Old 29-07-2010, 06:29 PM
Tenkom Tenkom is offline
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The resolution depends on the eyesight of the user. I can comfortably read 90% of pages on my n900 without horizontal scrolling or zooming thanks to the high resolution of the display. So for me nhd resolution would be a real step back. But Tim Salmon for example keeps saying he is not able to do the same comfortably. So for him it probably wouldn't matter very much.
 

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