All About Symbian - Nokia (S60) and Sony Ericsson (UIQ) smartphones unwrapped

  #1  
Old 28-07-2009, 02:03 PM
Tzer2 Tzer2 is offline
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How to use the Ovi Store application

As most Ovi Store users are still new to the service, Ovi Gaming has done a brief video showing off all the basic features of the current Ovi Store app (version 1.05) including browsing categories, sorting by popularity, filtering by price etc.

Read on in the full article.

  #2  
Old 29-07-2009, 12:31 PM
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Lightbulb Ovi Store - Licence to RIP OFF but not Nokia's Fault..

I'm sure I should have posted this in an appropriate forum, but to be honest, not sure where to.

So just to say, I think the Ovi store is a BAD thing, in some regards.

As I have just found out, YET ANOTHER previously FREE product, has now become CHARGEABLE, since being added to the Ovi store.

More and more and more applications are going this way.

I have no idea if this is to cover additional costs of having it promoted in the Ovi Store (one would think NOT though), but this seems to be the growing trend now for applications.

You see, ShoZu, that long time, cannot do without application that we all love so dearly because of it's FREE price tag, has now made it to the Nokia Store, I notice today.

But in so doing, it is now a one off CHARGEABLE item
.

Following in the footsteps of other previous applications to go this route, such as for example, Trimble Geocache Navigator... It used to be free, but now the only way to get it, is to go to the Ovi Store to purchase it.

Except it's not even there to buy, or wasn't last week.

I have notified Trimble about this, and they now say they have made Nokia aware too.

But bad enough that a once FREE product, becomes chargeable once added to the Ovi Store. Too much of a pattern forming here.

And even worse, the Nokia Website for Geocache navigator, refers you to the Trimble site to obtain it.

Whereby the Trimble site simply refers you straight BACK to Nokia, by way of the Ovi Store, as the only way to get it.

And it isn't even there.

So with the addition of the ShoZu Application today as a CHARGEABLE application, I wonder if Rafe or Steve would be minded to do a proper article on this subject, given that an increasingly worrying trend seems to be developing here..

That the Ovi store might be becoming a one-place-shop for all applications...

...but at the same time, heralding a change from a FREE model, to a CHARGEABLE model, for said applications within it.

If this IS the increasing sign of things to come, I say tear the Ovi store down completely right now. Even though this sea-change is likely nothing to do with Nokia themselves, I would guess, but rather a policy change for the Application Developers themselves with the Ovi Store just the catalyst, reason, or excuse they need, to implement this undesirable change on us...


Comments...? Article in the offing about this Rafe or Steve...? Or am I over-reacting. Possibly, but it seems to be becoming too much of a trend, methinks, and the more that goes this way, the more it will in turn snowball, and spread, I reckon...
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  #3  
Old 29-07-2009, 01:06 PM
Tzer2 Tzer2 is offline
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Shadamehr, with all due respect, you're giving new life to the phrase "no good deed goes unpunished".

Those apps you mention are all done by third parties and are nothing to do with Ovi Store or Nokia. The price is set by the third party publisher/developer (and they can set it to zero if they want, Ovi Store has plenty of freeware).

I think you're being unreasonable critcising developers in this way.

Just because a developer gives away early versions of software for free, that doesn't mean they're obligated to keep it totally free forever and ever. Shouldn't you just be grateful that they gave it away for free as long as they did? What favours did you ever do for them? Why do they owe you anything?

A lot of software starts out free so that people get to know it, giving something away is a cheap way of advertising your software's abilities. Once software becomes well known, the developer will find it easier to start charging so that the development costs can be paid for. There is nothing wrong with that, everyone has to pay rent, everyone has mouths to feed, and if you put time and effort into making a useful product it's okay to ask people to pay for it.

This is a very well-established business model, it's been done since home computers began. It's nothing new, I remember this kind of thing happening with coverdisk PC software 15 years ago, it would sometimes start out free to begin with and then charge for the newer versions.

If you think something is overpriced, don't get angry, just don't buy it.

If you think you could write a better application, go ahead and do that. That's essentially what the Open Source movement does.

No one is forcing anyone to charge for applications simply because they're in Ovi Store, and no one is forcing anyone to use these applications either.


Quote:
with the Ovi Store just the catalyst, reason, or excuse they need, to implement this undesirable change on us...
It's terrible isn't it, these developers write these applications and expect people to pay for them? How dare they! :-)

I mean you've paid them and they arrogantly... no wait, you haven't given them anything have you?

  #4  
Old 29-07-2009, 10:52 PM
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Tzer,

With ZERO due respect, I have to deplore your tone and response.

Firstly let me say that my message repeatedly said, that NONE of this was likely a fault of Nokia per se.

Go re-read it, before you do anything else, as your first yell at me, was for this very reason, so I think we better clear that up first.


Your next yell at me, was about being unreasonable for criticising developers for charging for their applications, and indeed, your last sarcastic comment, was the same ethos.

So limited respect to you there either, given I also said in my original post:

"I have no idea if this is to cover additional costs of having it promoted in the Ovi Store", as well as:

"You see, ShoZu, that long time, cannot do without application that we all love so dearly..."

So clearly Developers are MORE than entitled to get something back for their hard earned effort. I only apologise if this was not clear enough, and not sufficiently enforced in my post. Rest assured.


Nevertheless, you were unwise, unfair, and downright WRONG to slate me for it, because 'developers charging for their wares' is not the purpose at all of my post - not even close.

My post was highlighting what seems to be a trend in existing previously FREE apps, more often now becoming chargeable, and ASKING if this is being accelerated by the Ovi Store and app inclusion there.

So let me put it as bottom line as it gets...

If ShoZu went from none-chargeable on their site yesterday, to chargeable today ON THEIR SITE, you likely would not even be READING any post from me.

If that does not demonstrate emphatically that Developers being permitted to charge for all their sterling efforts is NOT my issue here, then nothing will.


The issue that I DID try and raise, was the apparent linkage between the influx of more apps being chargeable now, once they elect to be included in the Ovi store, and asking for views on whether this might end up being an unforeseen downside to the one-stop-shop principle of something like Ovi Store.

I did indeed close by inviting views or comments too.

I did not really request an attack on me, for certain points I have now outlined, and repeated, that I never claimed in the first place matey.

*lol*

So please re-read my post, and feel free to comment on the issues that I DID seek to point out, as part of it, if you wish.

I hope I have more than clarified the incorrect assertions made though.

In closing though, one final thought...

Of all the applications I COULD have mentioned, I DELIBERATELY listed the two key must have apps I love, that I WOULD have no hesitation in paying for - the two I can readily make that claim about, I love them so much.

So they were chosen specifically because I have nothing against a developer getting due reward for his hard labours.

You just missed the actual purpose of my article here.

Not' that hard work should not be rewarded'.

But that the Ovi Store may have an unfortunate downside, in encouraging previously free apps to become chargeable much sooner in their road-map.

No one is against developers being rewarded.

But at the exact same time, and in similar vein, there is nothing wrong in readily accepting those applications, that even whilst being EXCELLENT, and well worth paying for, are currently offered for free.

There is NO crime or wrong in that ethos either, whether you like that or not, as long as the Developer themselves elects to make it free for whatever reason they choose, or for however long they choose, and as such, this key fact gives me complete entitlement to make the post I did, asking whether an unexpected downside to the Ovi Store, is the earlier introduction of charging, for key apps that were previously free.

If you cannot separate and disassociate the two things, and instead see them as one and the same, you are not trying very hard at all my friend.

Hope this post doesn't sound rude.

But you not only got my prior post all wrong, you round on me on the attack as a result, and I can't allow that to continue unclarified.

Smiles.
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  #5  
Old 30-07-2009, 09:43 AM
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Come on shadamehr - please be respectful of other commenters (even if you don't agree with them ). Tzer2 may have missed the point on your comments, but I'm sure the reply wasn't intended as an attack on you personally (I'm sure you're aware that there's been plenty of comment about app pricing - not saying you personally, but it is a subject that gets a bit wearying for the admins). I think it's a case of talking at different points in the same subect area perhaps?

To answer you're original point - I don't think the trend you mention is driven by Ovi Store as such. I've spoken to Shozu about this and its a platform wide strategy that was decided on some time ago. What the Ovi store did do was make it possible to charge from a logistical point of view... so there may be something to what you say. If it wasn't Ovi Store though I think they would have done it another way.

And for the trend in general - the numbers I'm keeping track of actually show more freeware is being released as aresult of the Ovi Store - not less. Whether it is useful freewrae is more open to debate...! There have been some transitions from free to paid as you note though.

And yes I think for some users Ovi Store might be considered bad (high end users who know all about apps, and don't need an app store to download them), but for the vast majority it very significantly improves accessibility to third party applications.

As yes I do think its a good subject for a more in depth article.

On a personal note - yes also annoyed about Trimble - that's an app I use quite a bit myself!
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  #6  
Old 30-07-2009, 12:33 PM
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Rafe.

It's a simple issue of a Reasonable reply, and an Unreasonable one.


If anyone needs to see the difference, it's dead simple.

They can read Tzer's message above, and then they can read YOUR message just above.

Then they can readily see an "unreasonable reply", and a "reasonable reply" and see what the difference is be'twixt the two.


No pedantiscism, no splitting hairs here. Not at all.

I was genuinely furious at his tone and allegations.

And if there's one thing an unreasonable reply is SURE to engender, it's another one in return, we all know that.

I'm sorry if Tzer is a hard working Admin or not Rafe (I know he usually is, you don't need tell me), and indeed a friend of yours at that, perhaps.

But that never stopped YOU giving me a reasonable reply, so there is no excuse for his.

In fact every time I read it, it makes me even more and more mad, so I think I shall stop reading his reply at this point *lol*.


As for the rest of your comments and info Rafe, THAT is the exact sort of thing I HAD intended to engender - the useful information you supply, without attacks getting in the way.

And Rafe, you know me too, of sorts, in that I am one of the few on here that seems to ensure they post when logged in, with nothing to hide, as opposed to the all too many "Unregistered" who throw in all too regular snooty replies hiding behind a veil of secrecy.

So I'm NOT one of the bad guys on here, by a million miles.

Maybe as you say, all this talk of App. Pricing does weary the Admins, and I'll accept that as going some way to explaining his response.

But having granted him that, I can only say again then, that the one thing an unreasonable response will invariably generate, is another one in return.

I trust that explains my short-shrift reply therefore, and that normal service may be resumed.

Smiles at all.
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  #7  
Old 07-08-2009, 02:44 PM
Tzer2 Tzer2 is offline
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Quote:
I did not really request an attack on me
Shadamehr, could you quote one single line from my post which was an attack on YOU? Not your opinions, but YOU personally as a human being?

Because all I was talking about was your opinions, not you. I don't know anything about you, nor would I mention anything about you in a discussion about phone software as it would not be relevant.

You were so stridently posting your opinions (talking about "tearing down" ovi store) you must accept that people can cricitise those opinions with equal vigour.

And no, I don't think I did miss the point of your original post.


Quote:
My post was highlighting what seems to be a trend in existing previously FREE apps, more often now becoming chargeable, and ASKING if this is being accelerated by the Ovi Store and app inclusion there.
You told me to reread your post, now I'm telling you to do the same thing. I know what you originally posted, and my response was responding to that point.

As I said before:

1. Nokia's cut of an Ovi Store price is 30%, so at most that's how much an app's price MIGHT rise if it's on Ovi Store. But 30% of zero is still zero, so it cannot be responsible for freeware being made non-free, which is what your original post was about. There is nothing in Ovi Store's pricing structure which would force free apps to become non-free.

2. No one is forced onto Ovi Store, so Ovi Store cannot be forcing anyone to increase their prices. Publishers on S60 and Java are totally free to use non-Nokia sales channels if they prefer, and freeware can be offered for direct download straight onto people's phones through websites and SMS links. Unlike Apple, Nokia is allowing unofficial distribution channels onto their phones.

3. No one has to charge anything for their Ovi Store apps.

4. If responsibility for price rises is entirely with the publisher, not with Ovi Store, then "tearing down" ovi store will not help the situation because the "problem" is to do with application stores making it easier to charge for software. Or do you want to tear down all application stores in the world?

5. Ovi Store (like all app stores) offers an opportunity for increased sales volumes which means the development costs can be spread over a larger number of sales, which would actually allow a DROP in prices.

There is nothing innately expensive about an application store, but as it makes it easier to sell a product there may be a tendency for publishers to at least try to charge for something which was previously free. However, that's nothing to do with Ovi Store in particular, that's just human nature. If you suddenly find you can make money from something which was previously free, you will probably start charging for it.

  #8  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:26 AM
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shadamehr shadamehr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2 View Post
Shadamehr, could you quote one single line from my post which was an attack on YOU? Not your opinions, but YOU personally as a human being?

Because all I was talking about was your opinions, not you. I don't know anything about you, nor would I mention anything about you in a discussion about phone software as it would not be relevant.
Perhaps I'm being naive, but I'm not sure I see the difference. If someone attacks another persons OPINIONS, in a sufficiently sarcastic manner, I always thought and felt that was an attack on them anyway.

Perhaps I just didn't read enough into your final smiley at the end of the last sarcastic line tho...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
You were so stridently posting your opinions (talking about "tearing down" ovi store) you must accept that people can cricitise those opinions with equal vigour.
You make an omission here... posting opinions about a giant (the biggest in the world) mobile phone manufacturer, and company, surely cannot be taken in the context of a personal one upon an INDIVIDUAL.

I certainly know for a fact that if I have issue with a huge company, and issue with a specific individual, the language and tone I would use to chasten each, would be very different in each case.

So please don't confuse me with an organisation as huge and powerful as Nokia, as nice as that might be.

In which case, NO I completely disagree with what you ask of me, as to whether I feel I am fair game for an EQUAL response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
And no, I don't think I did miss the point of your original post.
Reading your specific points below (many of which are NEW points, even though you start by saying "as I said before"), then I am even more convinced you really do NOT get the point of my original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
You told me to reread your post, now I'm telling you to do the same thing. I know what you originally posted, and my response was responding to that point.
I have re-read yours, and the only thing re-reading it has achieved is made me perhaps add more weight to the final smiley. So for that point alone, fair enough then. It did also manage to make me all the more sure, having re-read it, that "As I said before" does NOT sit well with raising entirely new facts or points below...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
As I said before:

1. Nokia's cut of an Ovi Store price is 30%, so at most that's how much an app's price MIGHT rise if it's on Ovi Store. But 30% of zero is still zero, so it cannot be responsible for freeware being made non-free, which is what your original post was about. There is nothing in Ovi Store's pricing structure which would force free apps to become non-free.
I concur whole-heartedly. Just as well I never made any claim specifically about the PRICING STRUCTURE being the cause. Unless you meant the bit where I said something about "not sure t this is to do with the pricing or not..." But if so, that hardly qualifies as me making a full claim this IS the reason now does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
2. No one is forced onto Ovi Store, so Ovi Store cannot be forcing anyone to increase their prices. Publishers on S60 and Java are totally free to use non-Nokia sales channels if they prefer, and freeware can be offered for direct download straight onto people's phones through websites and SMS links. Unlike Apple, Nokia is allowing unofficial distribution channels onto their phones.
This one smacks of utterly contrived irrelevance. I say it again, but put simply again, the SUGGESTION I raise, in fact not even raise, but merely ASK people to ponder on, is simple...

Given that there is a whole new distribution channel out there now to Developers, in the form of the Ovi store, and it's size, scope etc, then it is not an altogether unreasonable thought to make, that it could be used by developers, as their MAIN distribution channel now, for delivering their content.

Even for those who previously used an entirely CLOSED DOOR method of delivering apps. A Classic example even being ShoZu, where the app was only ever available from their own site and servers.

This makes it IDEAL to jump to a CHARGEABLE model, using the OVI store, as this will proved MAXIMUM exposure, whilst being incredibly efficient in preventing people obtaining the app from FREE elsewhere, as it was never actually shared or offered for download, anywhere else.

So the key point I MENTION, is whether this could be having a knock-on second effect, of thus making those developers, even those who ALREADY had plans to move to a Chargeable model, of doing so far earlier in the product cycle, than would have been the case had Ovi Store not existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
3. No one has to charge anything for their Ovi Store apps.
Fully covered in my previous post. Especially irrelevant when taking into account what I say about those apps that Developers had even ALREADY decided to charge for at some point in the cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
4. If responsibility for price rises is entirely with the publisher, not with Ovi Store, then "tearing down" ovi store will not help the situation because the "problem" is to do with application stores making it easier to charge for software. Or do you want to tear down all application stores in the world?
I don't want to tear down ANY. It was a light-hearted claim, and I can only apologise that you do not see it so (and by that I mean it's my fault, not a stab at you). But again, on a serious note, your point DELIBERATELY fails to give credence to the point I offer, that NOKIA being the giant they are, are likely to be the most successful, in the similar way that there may be other ways to get iPhone apps, but the Apple store is a million miles the Daddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
5. Ovi Store (like all app stores) offers an opportunity for increased sales volumes which means the development costs can be spread over a larger number of sales, which would actually allow a DROP in prices.
Which would then apply, and be of relevance only to those apps that were PREVIOUSLY chargeable, but thus have zero bearing on those apps NOT previously chargeable, where the one-stop-shop usefulness of the Ovi Store MIGHT encourage Developers to move TO a charggeable model earlier than they might previously have envisaged, prior to the Ovi Store.

So right back to my point again, rather than dispelling it, but instead possibly re-enforcing the possibility of what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzer2
There is nothing innately expensive about an application store, but as it makes it easier to sell a product there may be a tendency for publishers to at least try to charge for something which was previously free. However, that's nothing to do with Ovi Store in particular, that's just human nature. If you suddenly find you can make money from something which was previously free, you will probably start charging for it.
Tzer... Pause.. Say WHAT??????

Re-read your last, and ask yourself again how COMPLETELY, UTTERLY, and wholly-encompassing, INCORRECT is your last paragraph, when applied readily for example, to something like Handango...?

On the contrary, entirely in reverse of what you mention, it has EVERYTHING to do with Ovi in particular (I'm about to DEFEND your own earlier claims here, get this). In the sense that Ovi appears to be all the things you claim specifically, in terms of a none-chargeable medium.

Whereas most of the other stores, that you claim are also just like Ovi in this aspect, are completely nothing of the sort, and the entire opposite.

Maybe I am relying on my WinMo experience here, but why do you think places like Paul O'Brien's Modaco site, created their OWN app store...?

Specifically BECAUSE of the fees, charges, limitations, and hoops, that Developers had to go through, and submit to, in order to get their app in the well known app stores, in DIRECT CONTRAVENTION and contrast to your paragraph above!

And whilst that might seem to relate to WinMo only, I am only too sure that the exact same applies to any Symbian application for submission in said stores.

So, let me clarify above any doubt, you didn't get the point of my post, if you keep raising these points in response.

And above all, and of fundamental import here, I can now see WHY you were so minded to reply in the way you did, if you fail to see that from an end user perspective, the clear and ready assumption here is that Application Stores DO cost, and DO incur a penalty or premium to developers, and DO involve jumping through hoops.

The importance of NOW knowing that for once, finally, these things DO NOT apply to the Ovi store In SPECIFIC, are hugely significant, and I therefore praise you for clarifying that.

But I urge you in no uncertain terms to consider WHY we would all NOT expect things to have been the way you now point out or claim they are with the Ovi Store, given that despite being the complete opposite of what you for some reason think about the OTHER large App stores, the truth is, there are MASSIVE premiums, costs, and hoops to be jumped through for Developers, to feature paid content in the OTHER main stores such as Handango etc.

And knowing THAT ourselves, can you therefore not see WHY there is (or was) a reasonable assumption that the same might have applied to Ovi Store...?

If so, this should do everything needed, to explain my post.

That you have clarified this is not the case with Ovi, is great news (though doesn't detract from certain other points I suggest as being a knock-on effect still).

But prior to that clarification, there was EVERY reason why a customer might NOT expect this to be the case, based on the facts of the OTHER large App Stores.

Hope that clarifies, and I once again offer the olive branch, if you so wish to take it this second time of offering, rest assured.
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  #9  
Old 08-08-2009, 07:36 PM
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Shadamehr, this really isn't worth either of our time. We both have better things to do.

Let's just agree to disagree on whatever it is that we do disagree on?

Whatever we say here is unlikely to affect what happens with the freeware situation either way.

In any case, none of this has anything to do with the Ovi Store application tutorial video, which is what this thread was supposed to be about. If you want to open a new topic about this issue (or anything else Ovi Store-related) on the Ovi Store forum please feel free:

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum...play.php?f=110
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  #10  
Old 10-08-2009, 02:32 AM
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Amen to that.
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