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  #46  
Old 06-09-2009, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by morpheus2702 View Post
Just curious...

Let's say Nokia brings out an 'N86 12MP' tomorrow (with all the quality optics the 8MP has).

Wouldn't anyone be crying? Would anyone seriously say 'ummmm no, it's just too much, give me the 8MP please?'
I don't see any relevance in that. The vast majority of buyers are suckers and will lap it up, that's precisely why the manufacturers do it. But.....more MegaPixels does not necessarily a good picture make. Regardless of manufacturer. The MegaPixel race has already been debunked in the digital camera world for savvy people. AAS has offered this article as a heads up for phone camera users, but it seems most are not yet ready for the truth, but instead prefer the simplistic formula.

Somebody posted that it would be good to have a set of standard tests that can objectively grade the image quality in a variety of conditions from a production sample unit. That would focus the manufacturers on image quality instead of just numbers.

  #47  
Old 06-09-2009, 07:16 PM
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I don't see any relevance in that. The vast majority of buyers are suckers and will lap it up, that's precisely why the manufacturers do it. But.....more MegaPixels does not necessarily a good picture make. Regardless of manufacturer. The MegaPixel race has already been debunked in the digital camera world for savvy people. AAS has offered this article as a heads up for phone camera users, but it seems most are not yet ready for the truth, but instead prefer the simplistic formula.

Somebody posted that it would be good to have a set of standard tests that can objectively grade the image quality in a variety of conditions from a production sample unit. That would focus the manufacturers on image quality instead of just numbers.
OK as a 'savvy person', where the 'N86 12MP' produced a demonstratively better image than the N86 8MP in all conditions, you would choose the 8MP?

  #48  
Old 06-09-2009, 07:51 PM
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OK as a 'savvy person', where the 'N86 12MP' produced a demonstratively better image than the N86 8MP in all conditions, you would choose the 8MP?
If the 12MP were the same price or better then I would choose the camera with the better image quality.

Not a very useful hypotheses though, because the point of the whole discussion is whether higher MP necessarily produces better images or not. Canon and Nikon (who know a thing or two about photography) have decided that a lower MP produces better images - with current sensor technology for the mass market. However the consumer finds it easier to go by a simple number, therefore driving the market into a technological brick wall.

  #49  
Old 06-09-2009, 08:17 PM
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I think even the luddites amongst us really do get that raw Megapixels do not a great image make (and don't need a sermon on the Mount about what the dedicated camera companies are doing). However, thank you for highlighting the point of the discussion - I may have missed it otherwise.

Hence why I've underscored in my question that the hypothetical 'N86 12MP' phone produces an all-round better image than an a N86 8MP in all conditions. Maybe I should have added too that the 'N86 12MP' does cost exactly the same as the N86 8MP.

An excerpt from Steve's original 'camera nitty gritty' mentioned:

Going up to 8mp, in the case of the Samsung i8510, the pixel numbers start to get silly - 3264 by 2448 indeed! That's just crazy, with heading towards two orders of magnitude more pixels than the first phone cameras (VGA). And no, you don't need all of them. And you have to find space on your memory card for the larger 2 to 3MB image files.

All of which sounds like I'm dismissing the new generation of 8mp camera-equipped super-phones. Not at all, more can be better - just not always. And, like I say, you really don't need 8mp.


I've not heard much on AAS to say that you don't really need the N86 8MP? And ultimately, has anyone actually looked at the images the Pixon 12 produces?

  #50  
Old 06-09-2009, 09:14 PM
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(and don't need a sermon on the Mount about what the dedicated camera companies are doing.
No, you don't need to know what the leading camera makers are doing you need that information dismissed or hidden because it is an inconvenient truth that blows away the argument for more MegaPixels. It's the elephant in the corner:

Quote:
Originally Posted by again
Showing Megapixel Restraint
The G11 has less megapixels on its sensor than its predecessor, the G10. The series went from 14.7MP down to 10MP, therefore satisfying the needs of photographers who wanted cleaner images. Further, with the coupling of the DIGIC 4 engine there should be less of a problem with the processing of the image noise in the your photos. One poster in the DPReview forums (via 1001 Noisy Cameras) made a connection that there may be a Sony sensor of some sort inside the body of this little digicam.

This move is one that was appreciated by Nikonians when Nikon released cameras like the D300, D300s, D700 and the D3. They kept the resolution to a decent sized while ensuring that image quality remained paramount. Canon is apparently taking the same route with some of their cameras and we wonder if we will see this with the upcoming/rumored 60D and 7D.
Don't need a sermon? Or in denial? "The series went from 14.7MP down to 10MP, therefore satisfying the needs of photographers who wanted cleaner images."

http://www.photographybay.com/2009/0...powershot-g11/


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Originally Posted by morpheus2702 View Post
Hence why I've underscored in my question that the hypothetical 'N86 12MP' phone produces an all-round better image than an a N86 8MP in all conditions. Maybe I should have added too that the 'N86 12MP' does cost exactly the same as the N86 8MP.

I've not heard much on AAS to say that you don't really need the N86 8MP? And ultimately, has anyone actually looked at the images the Pixon 12 produces?
You move goalpost so often that they need to be on wheels. You offer an army of straw men and a mountain of irrelevance.

Even if the Pixon12 produced the best images known to humankind, images that could not be distinguished from real life in crystal conditions there still would be no proof that the reason for that incredible performance was the number of MegaPixels in the sensor or the resolution output to .jpg file.

  #51  
Old 06-09-2009, 09:28 PM
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I don't need 8MP in my phone. 3.2 is OK for me. If I want to take a good picture then I use a real camera. It's not a question of quality with the phone, it's good enough for its purpose. But for the same reason I would use a swiss army knife for occasional tasks, if I wanted to cut logs I would need a chainsaw. If having a pointless high MP ccd in the phone pushes up the price of the phone for not much benefit (which appears to be the case) then to hell with it, I'll take the 3.2MP. Otherwise I don't care. I would probably set the resolution lower so I can email my pic out quicker anyway. I already set my 3.2MP phone lower because the images go from 700KB down to 200KB and look exactly the same in an email.

I don't think it would take much for any manufacturer to source a high MP CCD and DSP subsystem in their products.

I was reading something the other day about 3 bladed shaving razors being optimum, and 4 and 5 bladed razors having their blades too close together and filling up with residue between them, which consequently degraded their effectiveness. This discussion reminds me of that silly number-led marketing to ignorant consumers.

  #52  
Old 06-09-2009, 09:44 PM
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Not an inconvenient truth to me. I'm not supporting the megapixel myth, you understand? How big and high do the letters have to be for you to comprehend that fact? Maybe my army of 'straw men' are getting in the way?

Sorry if asking if anyone has actually seen an image from the Pixon 12 and forgive me if you find my asking as another small pile of rubble on my 'mountain of irrelevance'.

Very generous of you to say too given your exalted position as 'unregistered', I am deeply honoured you even address me

But given that this whole thread was sparked by that phone in question I feel it is somewhat relevant.

I promise I'll remove the wheels from my goalposts so can you keep up. Perhaps then you could give a straight answer without parroting what's gone before or rattling back on about the megapixel myth.

  #53  
Old 07-09-2009, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by morpheus2702 View Post
OK as a 'savvy person', where the 'N86 12MP' produced a demonstratively better image than the N86 8MP in all conditions, you would choose the 8MP?
Ok, No. I atleast would not choose a 12mp Cam phone. for me, a phone is not just about mega pix. a phone needs to do lot many things better for me than just increasing the megapixels. I would be happy with a 3MP cam, better apps, good messaging client, good PIM support, QWERTY (Well, that's an individual preference), good GPS fix, good screen resolution and many more....

You see the point is, what have smartphones become today. If I get all that i want in a a decent MP phone, I really do not need a 12MP with that tiny sensor. I have my Sony for that.

  #54  
Old 07-09-2009, 05:12 AM
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cool, a straight answer. :-)

  #55  
Old 07-09-2009, 12:15 PM
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I see only lame sarcasm, irrelevance and position-shifting, and no substantial response on behalf of those supporting more MegaPixels (whilst claiming not to). The argument for visibilty and witness of Pixon12 output has already been addressed and destroyed.

They are not all usually this easy, but there has been some enjoyment at least.

My work here is done.

  #56  
Old 07-09-2009, 12:26 PM
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Christ, I didn't know it was Doctor Doom or Lex Luthor I was chatting to all this time!

My apologies mighty one, how dare I have doubted your encyclopedic knowledge of.... everything!

Get over yourself or get some medication to help with your self-righteous delusional state.

  #57  
Old 07-09-2009, 12:51 PM
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Christ, I didn't know it was Doctor Doom or Lex Luthor I was chatting to all this time!

My apologies mighty one, how dare I have doubted your encyclopedic knowledge of.... everything!

Get over yourself or get some medication to help with your self-righteous delusional state.
I just couldn't stop laughing. This was good though :p

  #58  
Old 07-09-2009, 12:54 PM
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Very generous of you to say too given your exalted position as 'unregistered', I am deeply honoured you even address me

It's mildly hypocritical to point out the anonymous status of a poster when you yourself are posting under a pseudonym.

It's what web debaters do when they have got nothing left.

Ever get the feeling someone is laughing up their sleeve at you?

  #59  
Old 07-09-2009, 12:57 PM
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And I'm just laughing along with it!

  #60  
Old 07-09-2009, 02:22 PM
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"640K ought to be enough for anybody"

and why not banish resolutions larger than 320x240, and memory cards larger than 1gb ...
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