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-   -   Nokia strike a blow for reasonably priced smartphones (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94365)

viipottaja 14-04-2010 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 463337)
All you Nokia apologists/salesmen can swing it any way you want, but still these are devices with 2008 specs.

Yes, but at 2010 prices which are pretty darn cheap for what you are getting. I thought that was the point of the story. Which part of that you don't understand? :)

davidgilson 14-04-2010 09:42 PM

Hi,
I thought I'd stop and leave a defence and some comments after all the responses.

The thesis of the article was quite simple: These new phones seem to be very good value for money. Which I based on my own consumer-centric point of view. I don't pretend to know whether this was a knee-jerk reaction by Nokia or a long reaching strategy.

Either way, I think it was a wise move. In the tech world, there is a lot of bias towards what's going on on the USA, and what the latest shiny is. Although there is a big wide world out there, and emerging markets are very real, and more heavily populated. I find it hard to believe how these phones could fail to shift a high volume in emerging markets, and in the European budget market.

The whole release had a central theme of messaging, therefore, it nice to see the common sense move of furnishing this with QWERTY equipped phones. In a world where everyone is still desperately (and rather embarrassingly, IMHO) trying to imitate the iPhone, I viewed this unabashed fleet of QWERTY phones as rather pleasing two-finger salute to the trend setters. (If you follow my articles, you know what I think about touch-only designs.)

My initial reaction to the phones were similar to a few people here, in that they seemed (in my words) conservative. Although to make this a criticism worthy of flinging rotten vegetables is a bit irrational. Who said that Nokia are only supposed to be pushing out a new top-spec'd flagship every few months?

These new phones may not be exciting to hard-core geeks, but just look at how much world-wide popularity the E71 has had with ordinary folk. The E71 isn't an exciting phone, but it is a good down-to-earth useful tool, which is what all phone designers everywhere should be aiming for first and foremost.

Unregistered 14-04-2010 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 463337)
All you Nokia apologists/salesmen can swing it any way you want, but still these are devices with 2008 specs.

People are so desperate to knockia Nokia that they will say anything.

Show me the phone with better specs with a price anywhere near these devices with 2008 specs?

Nokia are not asking 2010 spec prices, not even 2008 prices, these are cheap enough to hurt rivals sales regardless of the numbers and specs (that most of the many buyers will not give a shit about the specs).

Unregistered 14-04-2010 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 463336)
Dear God I hate to say this but if you want it to just work, get an iPhone or at least wait until June when the 4.0 version is released.

Love them or hate them, Apple delivers the best out of box user experience coupled with the eco-system backing up their devices. Nokia simply can not match this with Ovi.

Here we go again, in a thread about low cost phones somebody suggest an alternative at three times more expensive price.

I have an iPhone and it doesn't "just work". It's an irritating pain in many ways. - especially reception and signal strength - basic stuff that I would expect a phone to be able to do in 2010 and in fact the Nokias do very well.

salimhb 14-04-2010 10:09 PM

Not really surprised, the E5 to the E72, is like the E63 to the E71. The e63 was cheap, but missed GPS, had a lower quality camera and used cheaper build material.

The E5 has a weaker battery and a 256K colors screen!, misses the optical keys and the compass. And we still haven't seen the build quality! but from the pictures, it looks more toy like.

It could be that the screen cosumes less power allowing a weaker battery to last longer, but anyway, it's still inferior to the E72 as hardware.

Plus from now till June when it will be released, the E72's price will have dropped much more.

Unregistered 14-04-2010 10:41 PM

you seem to be confused
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mark (Post 463340)
You're right - Nokia don't compete at the high end which is why half their smartphone sales last year were N and E Series.

Woops. Wrong again, Mr Unregistered.

You're so confused.

Just because Nokia calls themselves and their products high end doesn't mean they really positioned themselves to be.
Just look at Gartners figures for worldwide smartphones.
http://www.buying-pda.com/TB/?P=1014
http://techcrunch.com/2010/02/23/sma...-2009-gartner/

Or even nokia's own Q4 reports.
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...s_converge.php

The smartphone market grew by over 15% in Q3, but Nokia's market share overall declined by another 4%. Overall for 2009, they lost 5%. At this rate, they really should just re-market themselves, create a new product class for the market, and just regroup out of the smartphone market until they are actually ready.

Their N-series shipments keep declining since the N95. E-series in total shipped 5mil in 2009, but the iPhone shipped 8mil in Q4 2009. The numbered phones are really hi-end dumbphones, which is a valid market in itself, but don't delude yourself to think it will attract ppl that is willing to pay the premium in this lucrative smartphone market, so we really should just not count those, right? I see little to no coverage in AAS even for those, and are how many are s60 vs s40? Nokia is just competing on price and is milking their mature/ancient OS. How many of their phones DON'T use symbian anymore?? that's right! Nokia uses Symbian on almost all their phones now, including dumbphones. At least if you go thru their 2009 devices, it seems like even candybar phones use symbian now, not just some dummy phone OS. You might as well compare most of the symbian phones to mom and dad's cameraphones, and call it a win for the day.

To be honest, I see almost no value difference between the E series and N series now, as the S60v3 seems to be just going thru regular maintenance patching (a good thing!!), and the S60v5 is pretty much deemed a failure, as Symbian^1 development has stopped, and Symbian^2 development is just skipped. The E series just doesn't seem to be penetrating the business market (at least in the US), and the N series just doesn't attract the large disposable income consumer market. With subsidy, these phones are pretty much free now, which is the marketing death knell for high end products. Sophisticated users don't really care if the product is free. They just want their purchase to work well. But the lack of a tight, cohesive set of market targeting (i.e. a small, well-polished portfolio of products) really hurts them as they keep spending billions of $/euros with little return.

So to be honest, when you start trying to compare things apples to apples (no pun intended), you'll see why Nokia has been desperately spending big time, and trying major pushes. They've always dominated the mid-tier market (no surprise) enough to even redefine it at will. But they really fell flat on their face in the high end smartphone market since the N82 (their last well designed smartphone) as they didn't capitalize on their position. They really need to catch up on the high end market, and get much better product managers to reposition themselves. Get your perspective right.

-Gene

Unregistered 14-04-2010 11:16 PM

nokias
 
i have two e72s, 1 N900, and 1 6700. for now, i'm going for xperia x10, then samsung galaxy s when it comes out, and later the N8....the 3 nokia fones discussed here? they have no place in my celfone chest!

RushArt 15-04-2010 02:23 AM

Quote:

These new phones seem to be very good value for money.
Agreed.
Finally I have some decent candidate to suggest to my friends when they want a new phone (other than 5800 and E63 which are being replaced).
Not everybody wants an high-spec phone.

Jimmy1 15-04-2010 04:22 AM

As a short term business move, this makes sense: catering to emerging markets with lower end devices.

In the longer term, this strategy may come back to bite Nokia in the rear. Once your brand is known as the cheapo budget choice, it's awfully difficult for anybody to take you seriously when you decide to try your hand in the high end market again.

From an outsider's perspective, to me, this move looks like Nokia is signaling that they're ceding the high end 'Super Phone' category to nimbler moving companies like HTC.

Nokia is also deluding themselves if they think that LG, Samsung and the Chinese firms will let them play in the low end market alone. The Korean and Chinese manufacturers will squeeze Espoo in the low end, while HTC/Apple/Microsoft pressures them in the high end.

In addition to Windows Phone 7, Microsoft announced their intention this week to also play in the middle tier feature phone market, so soon you'll have former business partners now competing in the same market, and if its one thing Microsoft has, it's bundles and bundles of cash to throw at divisons, even at a loss, in order to hit at rivals and gain share.

Unregistered 15-04-2010 08:33 AM

Every year is a transition year
 
So 2010 is a transition year

2009 was also a transition year...

2008 was what - a consolidation year?

Not much new here since 2007, we got the N82 announced in November and N95-8GB in December.


Quote:

bear in mind why you understand the strategy, a lot of people do not - we're trying to make the point to them too!
Rafe people understand the strategy, please do not assume we're stupid. We have understood and evaluated the strategy and decided it is not good enough.

Shouldn't you be doing that - and leaving the PR communications to Nokia? Your "customer" at AAS is the consumer, you should put our interests above Nokias.

Unregistered 15-04-2010 08:45 AM

Mr. Mark,

Damn that had to hurt. Gene just pwned you dude. You better look both ways before crossing the street before you get run over like you just did. Ouch....

clonmult 15-04-2010 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RushArt (Post 463366)
Agreed.
Finally I have some decent candidate to suggest to my friends when they want a new phone (other than 5800 and E63 which are being replaced).
Not everybody wants an high-spec phone.

They're ridiculously good value for money - slider is virtually the same spec as the N97/Mini, only difference is the apparent lack of the digital compass.

Nokia are devaluing their "higher" end models though - the aim is to bring Symbian more into the mainstream to replace S40, but the way they're going about it is chaotic. Nokia have always had way too many models in their range, and thats showing irritating signs of continuing.

Mr Mark 15-04-2010 09:18 AM

Quote:

The smartphone market grew by over 15% in Q3, but Nokia's market share overall declined by another 4%. Overall for 2009, they lost 5%. At this rate, they really should just re-market themselves, create a new product class for the market, and just regroup out of the smartphone market until they are actually ready.
Gene, that's nice but since one of the fastest growing markets is the US in which Nokia have next to no share you shouldn't take market share as an absolute indicator.

In absolute terms Nokia sold 67.7 million smartphones in 2009 which is 7.2 million more than 2008. In Q4 2008, of the 16.4 million converged smartphones sold 8.9 million were N and E Series in Q4 2009 the corresponding figures were 20.8 million and 10.7 million so a consistent figure of about 50% N and E Series is a reasonable assumption.

Which, of course, means that Nokia sold about 34 million E and N Series smartphones in 2009 compared to, say, Apple's 25 million iPhones.

Perspective is great, facts are better. Nokia do have issues but please don't believe everything you read in US centric blogs.

@Unregistered

Son, if you can't even make your own arguments then probably best not to post - to paraphrase a well known saying, 'it is better to write nothing and be thought an idiot than to write something and confirm it'.

Unregistered 15-04-2010 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 463358)
With subsidy, these phones are pretty much free now, which is the marketing death knell for high end products.
-Gene

Gene, that might be true in the US (where Nokia isn't even alive anyway?) but in Europe, or the UK at least, ALL phones are available free with subsidy.

None of us actually know what strategy is behind the decision by Nokia to stuff all features into cheap phones. We can only speculate about what they are talking about in boardrooms.

My belief (yes speculation) is that by pushing out low cost GPS/3G/WiFi equipped phones with free maps navigation and qwerty keypads, they are forcing the whole market down in price and making it harder for the high end makers to maintain margins. They are also catching first time smartphone users moving up from dumb and hoping to achieve some brand loyalty for newer, bigger products that they have in the next two years or so. Nokia's strength is their enormous presence all over the world (except north America of course).

What is happening because of the N96, N97 rubbish now is old news. Nokia have acknowledged it and are on a new strategy that is still cooking. We will see.

Even Motorola came back and they were in a far worse state than Nokia are with their N series.

Unregistered 15-04-2010 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mark (Post 463393)
@Unregistered

Son, if you can't even make your own arguments then probably best not to post - to paraphrase a well known saying, 'it is better to write nothing and be thought an idiot than to write something and confirm it'.

The actual quote is:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Abraham Lincoln.

I guess you are both fools?


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