Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 28-11-2007 03:49 PM |
| Unregistered |
Another reason why iPhone isn't selling in Europe...
It's business-model is illegal in many European countries.
You aren't allowed to "lock" the phone to a specific Service-Provider the way Apple tries to do.
Also contested (and illegal in several EU countries) is the practice of Apple receiving a part of the monthly subscription fee that the user pays to his Serviceprovider.
"Sim un-locking" has to be allowed, easy and free as well.
The principal is and should always be, that You are free to buy any device and use it on any network. This is how it works in Europe (but not in the US, where the providers are fighting hard to keep their lock-in policy). The old AT&T model from way back when is no good.
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| 25-11-2007 11:56 PM |
| Unregistered |
Interestingly I have just priced up nokia n95 8Gb on Vodafone (uk) website. For similar voice, text and inferior dataplan (only 128Mb per month) it would cost me £400 for locked phone on 18 month contract. Total cost of ownership is, therefore, £1056.82 (if add cloud unlimited wifi at £3.99 per month which is also included with iphone tariff). iphone equivalent 18 month cost is £899. I think that, when Apple dropped the price of iphone by $200 that they also dropped the idea of the phone being unsubsidised. I think part of payback by networks to Apple is for the cost of phone. (Conflict of interest - the iphone has replaced my nokia e61 with no loss of functionality for me - but I am not a power user!)
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| 23-11-2007 10:30 PM |
| Unregistered |
That strategy did not really work for motorola. With cheap handsets having Razr thing margins, the profits are in the high-end devices, which is why the area is so competitive, despite its small size. Its analogous to the airlines making most of its money from 1st and business class, despite transporting millions of tourists.
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| 23-11-2007 08:08 PM |
| krisse |
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If Nokia devices are better why is everyone and their mother coping the iPHONE, EH?
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I think you're confusing what the media says and what the real world does.
The vast majority of phones are sub-100 dollar models bought entirely for calls and texts. Smartphones don't really matter at all one way or the other, they're essentially expensive playthings for the richest people in the world.
I'm not saying that to sound "right on" or politically correct, there's nothing wrong with buying a smartphone, it's just we have to keep in perspective just how small smartphone sales are compared to the cheapest phones.
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Is this a euphemism for "dumbass Maczealot"?
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Not at all, I just meant that if you're going to spend 1000 euros (sim-free) or 2000 euros (total contract price) on buying any kind of phone, you're likely to be someone who has a lot of cash and is very enthusiastic about technology.
Many people (perhaps most people?) in the world don't even earn 1000 to 2000 euros in a year, they simply cannot afford to buy anything close to that price scale.
On the other hand, most individuals and every village can afford a 30 euro basic phone, and indeed that kind of model is the most popular.
If someone produced a 30 euro phone which included a low-priced music store, THAT would be significant, because it would put music download sales in the hands of most people on the planet, even people who don't have access to a computer or even a normal record shop. But if the music store is expensive and only available on expensive models, its effect will be constrained to a small number of wealthy tech enthusiasts.
I don't think the media in rich countries realise just how global phone sales are now, so they tend to ignore the lower end handsets that make up the bulk of phone sales.
The Middle East, Africa and Asia are each far bigger and faster growing phone markets than the USA, for example, yet launches in those countries receive virtually no coverage compared to American launches.
People think Europe and America matter most for phone sales, but they don't, it's Asia that matters most, and Asia's stupendous growth is increasing that gap all the time.
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| 23-11-2007 05:47 PM |
| Guess Who |
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisse
[...]The only people putting their money down for the iPhone will be wealthy enthusiasts of one kind or another, [...]
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Is this a euphemism for "dumbass Maczealot"?
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| 23-11-2007 05:24 PM |
| marty3 |
nice review
nice article matt, i was quite surprised to read the iphone doesnt allow for sms forwarding, or multiple contact sending  this (in symbian world) is very simple basic features, but when i think about it, i would miss such small things like that emmencly, i forward sms on daily basis, and also forward them to multiple contacts.. such things we take for granted in symbian, but when thought about, they would be missed, well by me they would at least..
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| 23-11-2007 05:10 PM |
| UNCLESAMMY |
The People Will Decide!
If Nokia devices are better why is everyone and their mother coping the iPHONE, EH?
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| 23-11-2007 04:27 PM |
| krisse |
As others noted, it's a bit odd to compare a model from a couple of years ago with one that's just come out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassey
There's an interesting piece on the Register on how the highstreet is full of iPhones but you can't get hold of a Wii or an Eee PC for love nor money. Now who would have predicted that two months ago?
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Yes, I agree, I think we've reached a "good enough" plateau for many tasks in computing and electronics where we simply don't need or want more expensive hardware any more. If even low-end computers are good enough to do email, websites and multimedia then people are going to go for the cheapest computer possible, which is what things like the Eee offer.
One almost-totally-unnoticed development in Symbian a couple of years ago was their move to reduce the number of chips required by Symbian phones, which in turn greatly reduces the size and cost of the phones. The fruits of this are being seen now in things like the E51 and 6120, which are fully featured like their predecessors but absolutely tiny and have relatively low launch prices too. That reduction in size and price is IMHO by far the most important thing that a smartphone can do to make itself mainstream.
As long as a device has a certain minimum functionality, price outweighs all other factors. It's not a question of being the best, it's a question of being the cheapest while still being good enough.
In case anyone missed it, this was pretty much the gist of a feature article I did a while ago:
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/featu...Smartphone.php
I don't see Apple embracing this philosophy at all, they've always kept their products expensive year after year by upping the specs and not allowing anyone else to manufacture compatible devices. It's difficult to know what will happen in the short term, but that attitude just isn't going to work in the long term.
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But people who have been using the java based phones and the kinds will find the iphone a welcome surprise.
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The sim-free iPhone costs €1000, which is thirty times more than a basic phone, twenty times more than a java-based phone, four times more than the 6120 (which has similar multimedia and web-browsing abilities as the iPhone, plus the ability to render flash websites, plus it runs S60 3rd Edition software), and the iPhone even costs more than the E90.
Looking at it from an average user's perspective, I can't think of anything that a phone could do which would justify it costing thirty times more than a basic model. It makes no difference how good it is, that kind of price difference is too much.
You can pay less up front if you buy the iPhone on contract, but you're still talking about hundreds of euros when most people get contract phones (including the 6120) free. You also end up paying a very hefty monthly fee for a couple of years, far more than you'd pay for a Java-based phone, and the total price of the contract will probably be something approaching a couple of thousand Euros.
Whichever way you buy it, the ultra-high price for the iPhone means that it's difficult to see the average user even considering buying one, especially as basic phones are going down in price all the time.
The only people putting their money down for the iPhone will be wealthy enthusiasts of one kind or another, ordinary users will be sticking to their €30 sim-free or free-on-contract basic models.
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| 23-11-2007 03:07 PM |
| Rafe |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassey
It's now starting to look very much like what is actually letting it down in the marketplace is data entry in general and SMS in particular. I don't think this was an issue in the US where SMS isn't so massice as in the UK and cell phones are generally used for calls. The iPhone is fine for calls and adds a huge amount in terms of consuming content. It sounds like the synching also makes inputting unecessary for many things.
However, the UK market is addicted to texting and relies a lot more on general text inputting, swapping pictures by bluetooth etc. These are the things either the iPhone doesn't do or doesn't do well and seem to be the reason (as well as cost) that they have sold so poorly. It seems to have little to do with editing word documents, customising the today screen, running ftp clients or any of the stuff WE think is important.
There's an interesting piece on the Register on how the highstreet is full of iPhones but you can't get hold of a Wii or an Eee PC for love nor money. Now who would have predicted that two months ago?
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I think that's a very astute observation. I think the problem comes down to fact the iPhone (whatever you might think of it) puts the music / video experience first in design terms (the device size / interaction). It doesn't really look like any other phone (nor does it behave like that) and people don't like that. We can debate whether its good or bad at particular tasks, but in one sense that's irrelevant.
I'd agree cost is also a factor.
I also wonder whether the good enough syndrome comes into play here. People buy a phone because they want to make calls / send SMS. The keypad with small to medium size screen is the best form factor for this (one handed usage, device size etc etc). Increasingly people are also thinking it would be nice if it also did something else (play games, play music, do email).... but crucially how good the experience is here is far less important than the phone experience provided it is good enough.
Yes touch and the iPod model does provide the best solution for media playback, but if a phone can provide a good enough alternative then that's all it needs to do. Music on a phones like the Nseries is actually quite good (i.e. most people can get a bit of music on them through one of the various methods. It might not be so elegant but it works. (The exception to this maybe where you're an existing heavy iTunes users, but then I suspect people already own an iPod and maybe more interested in the Touch. Equally this works the other way round - if you have your computer music collection in Windows Media Player you'll have an easy time using an Nseries phone)
Personally I think this is one reason for S60's relative success - it does the ordinary phone bit very well (or rather its very like the Series 40 experience people are use to).
On a separate issue: Things like codecs for video / audio apply less now. The recent S60 phones have the same stuff as the iPhone (indeed if anything they are more flexible). I also think sync works as reliably on S60 as anything else I've tried. Each has its annoyances. e.g. the iPhone uses play list based sync (making it less intuitive to drag and drop files on to it)
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| 23-11-2007 02:28 PM |
| Unregistered |
Nothing about lack of 3G on the iPhone? A deal killer in my opinion.
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| 23-11-2007 01:34 PM |
| Bassey |
It's interesting but a lot of people on here and other "smartphone" sites (myself included) have been saying for months that the iPhone looks like a great phone, but what lets it down are the power features we are used to.
It's now starting to look very much like what is actually letting it down in the marketplace is data entry in general and SMS in particular. I don't think this was an issue in the US where SMS isn't so massice as in the UK and cell phones are generally used for calls. The iPhone is fine for calls and adds a huge amount in terms of consuming content. It sounds like the synching also makes inputting unecessary for many things.
However, the UK market is addicted to texting and relies a lot more on general text inputting, swapping pictures by bluetooth etc. These are the things either the iPhone doesn't do or doesn't do well and seem to be the reason (as well as cost) that they have sold so poorly. It seems to have little to do with editing word documents, customising the today screen, running ftp clients or any of the stuff WE think is important.
There's an interesting piece on the Register on how the highstreet is full of iPhones but you can't get hold of a Wii or an Eee PC for love nor money. Now who would have predicted that two months ago?
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| 23-11-2007 12:47 PM |
| Jejoma |
A comparison against any Symbian 3G phone combined with the Nokia N800 would also be interesting. There's not the same user-friendly interphase but what's there is pretty good and the larger screen is certainly very welcome to my eyes :-)
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| 23-11-2007 12:36 PM |
| mattrad |
Sorry ratza, I'm not a journo and so can only compare what I own.
Will gladly accept any review devices though... 
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| 23-11-2007 12:21 PM |
| ratza |
It should've been compared with an UIQ device and not with an S60. Make a comparison between Sony Ericsson P990 an iPhone for example.
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| 23-11-2007 12:08 PM |
| mvn |
"..disjointed sync effort..."
This just about sums up where Nokia are (and will) losing ground. Nokia and others fail to get the basics of seamless integration between the devices & pc/mac platforms right, I have lost count the number of times that my S60 device fails to connect or the steps/tweaks I need to do to get some codecs to transfer/work on the phone.
"...Symbian still gives the power user the option to control more..."
The majority of users are not power users, the majorty of users just want things to work first time, every time!
As Apple improve their phone line-up and fix the rev 1 issues that most people complain about (3g, camera, sms/mms) then they will start to see an ever increasing market share unless the other companies realise where apple is coming from, ease of use for the majority not a long list of brilliant technology on paper like the N95.
I have used Symbian (currently using 6120 and at the moment is one of the best phones I have used), Windows Mobile & Palm smartphones, along with various media devices. But using a couple of ipods for the last couple of years has shown up how bad these mobile platforms are at making it easy to sync and manage your media files (music, photos, video)....
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