Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 21-01-2007 03:39 AM |
| ajg |
I see where he's coming from. While I agree on some points, many of his points are contradictory and unfounded.
For example, the idea behind cheap airlines and "expensive" airlines is not completely true. People more and more are expressing that cheaper airlines such as AirTran and JetBlue (here in the U.S.) are far superior to anything the big airlines are providing for 4 times the cost. While coach on JetBlue isn't 1st class, it beats any coach seat on American, Delta, or many of the other axis powers of the Airline industry. So what's his point?
Another example is this list of revolutions at the bottom of his article. He points out the Nintendo Wii. By his definition of revolutionary, he says that everything the iPhone has has already been done. Well, hate to tell him, so is the same with the Wii. I had a motion-sensing controller for my computer in 1995; it wasn't very good but it worked mostly. Nintendo has the Power Glove on the original Nintendo. Sega had a ring-like device you'd stand in and punch and kick and it would control the video game. I love my Wii; it is way cool but the only thing I can say about it is that it has moreso perfected the gaming experience more and making it more intuitive. I would say, just from observation, that is what Apple is really going for with the iPhone; intuitive and perfecting. Taking what's been done and making what it should have been for some time.
The title of the article is a bit melodramatic and his conclusions of what the last smartphone will be is highly erroneous. There will always be a need for upgrading and people will always know the different.
ONce again, I agree in a very limited way with what he is saying. I think it is a very over-zealous article. Smartphones have a long way to go to do thing how I dream them doing but I don't think he's got the right idea.
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| 19-01-2007 04:05 PM |
| Rafe |
The first communicators wont be touchscreen, but who knows what may come in the future (no knowledge here, just a guest).
I think the communicators will come before the touchscreens (the first one anyway). Though I could be proved wrong in about 3 weeks.
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| 19-01-2007 03:21 PM |
| marcol |
Ok. I think I have it now: S60 touchscreen soon, communicators soon - BUT the communicators won't be touch screen. Which only leaves one question... 
I hope you're right about a range of touchscreen devices. Google Maps - that's another one that would benefit a lot.
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| 19-01-2007 02:55 PM |
| Rafe |
I think it is safe to say that:
a) the first communicators will not be touchscreen
b) touchscreen is likely across a range of device.
It'll be very interesting to see how touchscreen stuff gets implemented into S60. Nokia has been working on it for some time now.
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| 19-01-2007 02:28 PM |
| marcol |
Hi Rafe,
Do you reckon touch screens on S60 will be limited to communicator-type phones or might they be more widely deployed? E series for example? I don't generally miss a touch screen when I'm using the E61 but the are a few things that would benefit (TomTom for instance) and it would obviously open up a whole host of new possibilities - handwriting recognition, freehand drawings... a completely new form of UI
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| 19-01-2007 12:29 PM |
| Rafe |
I think the distinctions between communicators / mediaphones / smartphones are valid, but increasingly it is not about the software platfrom but the device design. Both S60 and UIQ are quite flexible and both (well S60 soon) can be touchscreen / non-touchscreen and work in a variety of form factor / screen orientations.
That said I think they both show their origins in the current software versions.
The next Nokia communicator will show S60 potentially as a communicator, but wont make everyone happy. I also think we'll see UIQ going in the opposite direction (to smartphone) very shorty - it kind of already has with W950.
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| 19-01-2007 09:30 AM |
| marcol |
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgduris
(Play along with me here) S60 is a Smartphone UI. S80 was a Communicator UI. UIQ is a Communicator UI. Giving an S60 device a qwerty keyboard a la E61 does not a Communicator make. It may have similar physical properties to a 9300, P990, or (OMG!) a Palm thingy but, it is just a Smartphone - a PHONE - with a whole bunch of keys. I - in light of this argument - think we are being unfair in our expectations of S60. It is a phone with some enhanced organizational features, not a palmtop computer with a phone. It complements a laptop computer - it cannot replace one as can a P990 or 9300.
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I don't really get your argument, probably because my knowledge of Symbian is pretty much limited to S60v3 and a Nokia E61.
Leaving aside S60 vs S80/UIQ comparisons for a moment, I'd have to say I'm not sure I'd characterise the E61 as just "a phone - with a whole bunch of keys". It's a good email device, pretty good viewer and passable editor of Office and text documents. It can be used to view pdfs. It has an excellent web browser, reasonable PIM and media functions, and it runs some very useful third-party apps (TomTom Navigator is probably the most useful to me personally). For me, it's at least as functional as the Treo it replaces.
Anyway, I'd be grateful for illumination of your main point that S80/UIQ UIs are somehow more functional and enable devices like the P990 and 9300 to replace laptops in ways an E61 can't. Is this to do with touch screens?
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| 18-01-2007 06:11 PM |
| dgduris |
This is a great discussion!
Some time ago - like several years - someone - I think it was Steve Litchfield - made the distinction between Smartphones and Communicators. If I remember correctly, Smartphones were phones that would hold your entire address book and calendar and sync with your computer. Communicators were mini computers (our beloved Psions with radio transmitters) which did much more - like have more robust e-mail and document view/ edit capabilities and were, in general, more customisable to suit user preferences (Steve, please correct me if I err here).
I think that what is missing in THIS discussion is THAT distinction between Smartphones and Communicators and I think the perspective THAT distinction brings would be of value here.
Case in point:
(Play along with me here) S60 is a Smartphone UI. S80 was a Communicator UI. UIQ is a Communicator UI. Giving an S60 device a qwerty keyboard a la E61 does not a Communicator make. It may have similar physical properties to a 9300, P990, or (OMG!) a Palm thingy but, it is just a Smartphone - a PHONE - with a whole bunch of keys. I - in light of this argument - think we are being unfair in our expectations of S60. It is a phone with some enhanced organizational features, not a palmtop computer with a phone. It complements a laptop computer - it cannot replace one as can a P990 or 9300.
Could be faster though.
Perhaps the E90 will come forth and render this perspective lapsed. I hope so.
Cheers!
Richard
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| 18-01-2007 11:29 AM |
| marcol |
Quote:
Originally Posted by slitchfield
I do see where you're coming from with this, honest I do. But I think you and others are exagerating quite a bit.
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I may have exaggerated a bit and some OSs/UIs are worse than others in this respect (Palm is the best and WM the worst IMHO) and with any UI some tasks are easier than others.
When I first got an S60 device (an E61) a few months ago I wanted to change the aspects of screen saver. Firstly, I wanted to change the time out period. That's five or six levels down:
Menu>Tools>Settings>Phone>Display>Power saver time-out
(It's those six levels on my device now but may have been 'only' five levels by default and I put 'Settings' in 'Tools' when I tidied up the Menu screen - I'll come to that in a minute).
I also wanted to see if I could change what the screen saver displays. I found it eventually, it's in a completely different place:
Menu>Tools>Profiles>Select profile>Edit>Power saver
(Not that there was an option I wanted to change to until I installed Handy Weather).
(I also wanted the keys to lock when the screen saver activated. I eventually realised you couldn't without a third party app - I now use AutoLock - highly recommended).
Don't get me wrong, I think on balance S60v3 is great. I love the stability (no crashes in the four months I've had the E61). I love that (unlike Palm OS) it supports multitasking and UMTS and that I now have UMTS and Wifi in such a sleek device. I think the suite of bundled apps is really pretty good (I've needed many fewer third party apps than I had on the Treo 650) - the browser is stunning. I also like the active standby screen a lot.
There are definitely some things I'd like to see change though, mostly they're to do with the UI. Here are few of the more do-able ones that affect the main device UI:
1) One of the first things any new S60 user will do when they get a device is push the Menu button. First impressions count and that screen is a real mess: a mass of application, settings and folder icons in no apparent order. One of the first things I did was make some new folders and tidy up the menu page. I now have the original folders plus four more arranged alphabetically. It's much easier to use than what Nokia ships. First change: tidy up the menu screen by putting everything in a folder. Better still, ditch the folders and replace each one with a tab (think Launcher X on Palm OS).
2) I've also arranged all the icons inside the each folder alphabetically. A bit of a pain to do but much easier to find things. Second change: automatic alphabetising of Menu screen folders (or tabs) and their contents (or at least make this an option).
3) On the active standby screen there are seven icons and the two buttons under the screen to launch apps. Plus you can get to your main mail box, the calendar app and the to-do app from this screen. That's twelve apps and it's great. I'd hazard that twelve apps would cover 90 plus percent of app launches for 90 plus percent of users. Third change: pushing the menu button once should take you to the active standby screen; pushing it twice should take you to the Menu screen (or at least make this an option).
4) There's back-up functionality but it's hidden in a menu in the 'Memory' app. On my Mac, on a Palm or WM device back-up is done via a dedicated app with it's own icon to launch it. Fourth change: don't hide things like this away in unexpected places.
5) The 'Settings' screen doesn't respect the grid view option which means only five things are visible rather than 12 (on an E61). Also, see my example about the screen saver above. Fifth change: Re-do the settings interface, grouping things together logically, allowing grid view and trying to reduce the depth to which things are buried. Palm 'Preferences' is a good example of how to get this right.
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| 18-01-2007 07:41 AM |
| puterman |
krisse: Nice article!
bassey: Good points, I was about to write something similar.
The thing that annoyed me a bit was how revolution was defined to mean one and only one thing. A word doesn't have a meaning if isolated, its meaning is derived from the context. When Steve Jobs uses it about an Apple product, it's obviously marketing talk, and means "go buy this thing". Jobs' revolution might not be your revolution.
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| 18-01-2007 07:32 AM |
| slitchfield |
>>I feel symbian signed ruins the s60v3 experience of a fan who knows how not to get viruses and when to tweak what in system folder to achieve the results they want
While I applaud your obvious expertise(!), you (and I) represent the top 0.01% of the smartphone market. And your comments are galling considering that krisse's article was all about smartphones somehow becoming ubiquitous and used by everybody. 'Tweaking in the system folders' is surely a no-no for the the man in the street.
And please, guys, less of the name calling and talk of Symbian Signed and platform security being c**p, we've done editorials before on the pros and cons, but it'll end up being the saviour of Symbian OS as the smartphone gets more and more common and a target of malware.
Steve
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| 18-01-2007 04:11 AM |
| Hardeep1singh |
For once i agree, Symbian signed is pure crap, created only for people who knew nothing about s60 and have just bought it because it was the new Nokia available, completely ignoring the likes and preferences of an s60 fan, I know anti-virus companies would somewhat agree with my point too but that would purely be for some politically incorrect reasons.
I feel symbian signed ruins the s60v3 experience of a fan who knows how not to get viruses and when to tweak what in system folder to achieve the results they want, may be this is the only reason why i'm still continuing with N70 and not upgrading to a newer Symbian 9 phone.
But... S60 experience is still much better than the so called SMARTPHONES available in the market.
I made a huge mistake of buying Windows Smartphone as a second phone sometime back, it needs a pc with activesync to install even the smallest of apps. Come to think of it, I don't have a pc at home, i've been using s60 phones for 3 years and i never felt the need to buy one, whatever apps and games i download to play, whatever themes i use or music, i download, whatever posts i make in here and many other forums, i do it all through a gprs connection and my trusty N70. Not just that i even maintain one of my good friend's website using Yftp on N70, to surprise you even more, my friend created the website using an ngage. And after that when i see people making comments like s60 is not a real smartphone, it makes me wonder, have they even used an s60 to the best of its abilities?
Hardeep Singh
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| 17-01-2007 08:07 PM |
| Raven |
Quote:
Originally Posted by slitchfield
My daughter has taught herself how to use S60 from the age of 5, my wife uses a S60 smartphone and the blessed things are selling at the rate of 35 million a year. So they must be doing something right.
I would LOVE to see all sorts of rough edges knocked off the S60 user experience (current pet hate - jumping from Connection manager to Settings | Connections manually) but it's not as bad as you lot are making out. Really it's not.
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I for one think it is that bad, maybe worse. 
There seem to be a lot of focus on the user experience for people that are new to S60, but what about us 'power-users'?
Yes, there are sometimes a ridiculous amount of button presses to reach the simplest things in S60, but lets not forget about all the options missing in this so called 'complex and advanced' UI. The standby screen is a joke. The screen size/resolution is really poorly utilized - seeing only three messages in a row in most S60 v.3 phones is beyond ridiculous. How hard would it be to add a simple zoom function within each app. The alarm clock hasn't changed since the 7650 was released almost 5 years ago. Almost every single built-in application is so basic and severely lacking in options compared to other smartphones.
My previous smartphone, the 9300, (running Series 80 - which is now abandoned by Nokia) was really so much more advanced when it comes to UI navigation and the quality and number of options within each built-in app. Forgetting about new tech like 3G, Wi-Fi and an advanced internet browser, using my E61 is like going back 4-5 years in terms of (power)user experience.
Symbian Signed, Security for morons, hitting a link in an e-mail and the WAP browser is launched, 5 or more button presses just to adjust the backlight, an endless amount of joystick scrolling required when bringing up the Options menu, opening up the Messaging app and going to the inbox and then wanting to check Reports requires 7 joystick scrolls, opening up an SMS - starting to write a reply but then receiving another more important SMS or e-mail requires the already started reply to be saved to Drafts before continuing to write a reply to the more important message. In my 9300 I could keep as many SMS/MMS/e-mail replies I wanted open and ready at all times - TRUE multitasking. I could go on and on, but I suppose only two or three other people reading this really knows what I'm ranting on about...
I hated S60 the first time I got to use it (Nokia 7650) and I hate it now (Nokia E61). I am really excited about the rumored E90 Communicator though, but again, I absolutely loath the fact that it uses S60. Even though I expect Nokia to do some modifications to the inside UI and applications, I just know that it will be missing so many things Communicator fans have gotten used to.
The iPhone may not technically be called a "smartphone" because of the presumed inability to install native third party software, but IMO a S60 phone doesn't deserve that label either because of the abysmal user experience (and the Symbian Signed crap).
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| 17-01-2007 05:17 PM |
| slitchfield |
>>They're complex, multifunctional devices with complex, convoluted interfaces that are often far from intuitive and frequently involve using abstruse options from obscure menus. Sure, they're mostly fine once you've learned how to use them, but the learning curve is steep and the learning experience is off-putting
I do see where you're coming from with this, honest I do. But I think you and others are exagerating quite a bit. My daughter has taught herself how to use S60 from the age of 5, my wife uses a S60 smartphone and the blessed things are selling at the rate of 35 million a year. So they must be doing something right.
I would LOVE to see all sorts of rough edges knocked off the S60 user experience (current pet hate - jumping from Connection manager to Settings | Connections manually) but it's not as bad as you lot are making out. Really it's not.
Steve
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| 17-01-2007 02:00 PM |
| marcol |
Also, I don't think tinned food is fresh
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