Reacting to a piece on The Register, Ewan's fed up with the 'Wasn't life better with Psion in the 1990s' brigade. Time to move on and bury the memory of Psion for good, he feels...

Read on in the full article (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/4911_Can_we_please_consign_Psion_to.php).

I am curious to know how the E90 performs for "bulk" data entry, for example taking notes during a meeting. As the keyboard was one of the main Psion advantages over a lot of competitors, the E90s keyboard is likely to be the thing to compel Psioneers to make the move (or not).

As for synchronisation, only very recently has Symbian OS synchronisation become usable, without duplicating all you contacts every time you synchronised. There's still the issue with phone number formats, though.

I have an E61 and have now read about the new E61i. Better keyboard, better scrolling etc. Can Nokia have got it so wrong with the e61. The big companies are firing out new hardware so frequently yet so many devices have poor design. I like the look of the new e90 and it looks like it is the answer to the Psion 5. However, this time around I think I will wait until the E90i until they send out a model with all glitches fixed.
Crawford Patterson

The point of the article you reference is that sometimes technology can go backwards. There's no way you can say the E90 PDA is as good as the Psion PDA. And now we know that the E90 just bodges the E70 into a big case, there's no way you can even say it's as good as the 2-handed S80. It's a big step backwards.

I see neither of you is actually disagreeing.

Now imagine if civilization, over centuries, lost the capacity for language (eg as in Mike Judge's Idiocracy). Would you then be trying to keep language alive, or would you be saying, "Get over it! We can point and grunt and everything's fantastic!"

Poor show, chaps.

I see your point and I agree to some extent. However, I don't think we should just ignore the past. Perhaps, though, people should be as ready to learn from the mistakes of the past as they are to reminisce about the good times.

If the E90's keyboard really is only useable by thumb typing then it does seem an appalling mistake on the part of Nokia.

Oh, and that Moto just looks amazing :)

Psion 5 will only die when there's a symbian phone that could match the stock PDA software.

None have yet reached that milestone.

Shame, Psion bowed out - they could have come up with some very nice smartphone devices.

Steve,

It is easy for you to make this that we should all move on now:

The E90 is on the horizon for you and the Europeans and may well satisfy the desire to have 1 fast, efficient machine that manages PI as well as the Psion did and communications as well as, well... as a radio-enabled Series 5mx would have.

BUT NOT IN AMERICA YET!!! So I'll hold onto my misty-eyed memories and dreams a bit longer. (Wow! I should get a life!)

Cheers!

Richard ;-}

The only rose tinted specs I see regularly seem to be pirched the the AAS reviewers' noses when they review s60 devices. The s60 PIM functionality just isn't yet comparable either to the old Psions (or even the UIQ suite).

There's nothing wrong with pointing this out - if you buy an old Psion now you will be able to use functionality that is not present in the S60 device - not for any technical reason (the modern devices have all the required hardware and OS features to support it) they just haven't bothered or seen a need to implement it. Hence the frustration - you know it could be done.

So to use the S60 PIM apps in the E90 seems crazy to me. This device is supposed to be the flagship organiser isn't it?

Ewan - the ranting of a deranged fanboy.

I'm sure if you're repairing Nokias you'll see the design flaws too e.g. when communicators get a hairline crack at the hinge and poof, the screen is gone too.

As for all the s60 sold - so what - they're only phones that are hardly any more capable than the SonyEricsson T630 if you're looking for a 5mx/Revo replacement.

We can argue that the s60 phones are computers till the cows come in - but as far I'm concerned, if I have to multitap to enter data/info - they're just overpriced T630s.

Andrew of The Register has valid points. If the human machine interface is poor - it sucks then - no defense. From my view I've hated EVERY Nokia Symbian implementation - gone is the simplicity.

Will I get the E90? Probably not - I'll just buy deep discount 9300i not because it is any good, but because it's the only alternative.

If Nokia really wanted the Psion keyboard - just buy the technology from Psion - I'm sure they'll sell it after all they've shown they'll probably sell their mothers too if the price is right.

Ewan - it's not time to move on - it's time to find out where it went wrong because mobile computing sure isn't here yet.

It's interesting how over-the-top and emotional one or two of your responses to Ewan's article are. It's as if you're taking his comments personally.

You ought to listen to yourselves, these aren't balanced comments:


"Ewan - the ranting of a deranged fanboy."

That's just an insult, not feedback at all.


"From my view I've hated EVERY Nokia Symbian implementation"

You've tried every Nokia smartphone ever made? For several months each? Because that's how long it can take to get to know and love the ins and outs of a system.

A lot of people who hate a computer system hate it because it's unfamiliar, not because it's innately bad. When I used a Macintosh recently I absolutely loathed it, but most of my criticisms were worthless because they centred entirely around the differences between it and Windows. The Mac did some things differently, I had to get over it, and only when I got over it could I compare the two systems fairly.


"it's time to find out where it went wrong because mobile computing sure isn't here yet."

Really? Why is it I can do most of my computing tasks on mobile phones then? Email, the web, instant messaging, calendar, music etc. The interface might not be exactly what you want, but it's definitely computing and it's definitely mobile.


"There's no way you can say the E90 PDA is as good as the Psion PDA."

Just out of interest, have you actually tried using the E90 for an extended period of time?

There's hundreds of things the E90 can do that the Psion never could, it's difficult to know where to start.

You can't surf the web on a Psion, you can't do mobile email, you can't do IM, you can't upload or download data on the move, you can't see where you are on GPS maps. All of these things are incredibly useful for organising and managing your life, which is surely the point of a PDA. You can even make phone calls on the E90 for goodness sake, doesn't that make your life far easier too?

These are the kind of things that people have come to expect from smartphones and PDAs nowadays. To pretend that a Psion which that lacks these things is superior is just delusional. At best the Psion had useful features which the E90 still lacks, but then that's true of most successful computers.

If Psion was still making devices, they'd have to do more than just make PDAs: they'd have to be phones, and web browsers, and high speed modems, and multimedia players. PDAs that lack these features have seen their sales crumbling away to nothing, and every year brings a new collapse in their share of the market. Whatever their merits, people just don't want pure PDAs any more and you can't blame manufacturers for abandoning the sector as demand disappears.

I used to have an 8-bit computer called the Sinclair Spectrum, it was great, I loved it, and it still has a loyal following today (and incidentally it outsold all of Psion's organisers). It was probably the best-value computing package ever released, and opened up home computing to an entire generation of British people. It would boot up straight away, it had incredibly cheap and hyper-efficiently written software and it was completely free of viruses. Should I claim that makes it superior to my PC?

It would be crazy to do that because the Spectrum can't do a fraction of the things that a PC can do, particularly the online things, and that's why no one uses them or computers like them any more. They're pretty much useless as modern IT tools because they completely lack the ability to handle multimedia or connectivity. It's not really a fair comparison as they're from completely different eras when users had completely different needs from their devices.

As computers get more advanced and more converged there is always a price to pay, either a literal amount of money or some sort of technical compromise. Whether that price is worth paying is up to the market, whether people buy things. So far the market has said a resounding YES to modern smartphones and a resounding NO to old style unconnected PDAs.

Actually, you could get on to the internet with the Psion and browse internet, email etc.

I did just that - infrared connection from Psion to Ercisson Phone - mobile access. Ok, its not smartphone style - but still very possible and usable.

I wouldn't like to have browsed content heavy sites.

Psion + cell phone over smartphone - No chance. I'll keep my E70 ( with the nice Psion software - oh, if it were possible!)

The Calendar in series60 is a poor excuse, Nokia can do so much better.


You can't surf the web on a Psion, you can't do mobile email, you can't do IM, you can't upload or download data on the move, you can't see where you are on GPS maps. All of these things are incredibly useful for organising and managing your life, which is surely the point of a PDA. You can even make phone calls on the E90 for goodness sake, doesn't that make your life far easier too?

The E90 looks great but Mr Orlowski's view that the PIM s/w is a step backwards for Communicator and Psion users is incontrovertible (and he has at least had a chance to try the keyboard which is more than most of us have had). Why is this having a rose-tinted view of the past? (If he had been speaking in glowing terms about dodgy hinges, 5mx screen contrast and Revo battery charging then you might have a point).

Michael Mace (http://www.mikemace.com/), who used to work for Palm, has an interesting hypothesis about the different kinds of users of mobile devices. He says there are three kinds of people using mobile devices, one using the device to support their communicating needs (say Blackberry, M600, E61), one using it for multimedia (say Nseries, W950), and one using it for information storage and retrieval (say Psion). The communicator range is targetted at both the information and the communicating people, in case you are wondering. Also, the number of people in each category is roughly equal, being about 12% of the entiere range. Everybody else just wants a phone.

I think Mace's hypothesis explains very well certain aspects of the E90 debate. People wanting an infomation device only appear to be unhappier with the E90 than the communicating people.

Certain aspects of the commie range (lack of memory, lack of speed, keyboard) made it not quite good enough for the info people, but more than adequate for the communicating people. For instance, writing an email on the commie works fine, but for writing a report the keyboard lets it down.

I know I am the info kind of guy (half of the time I leave my mobile at home when I'm outdoors ;-) ), and though I rather like the commie range, it had and might still have problems that might make it not the perfect machine for me.

As such, the E90 appears to come closer than ever before to being an excellent information device. As far as I can see at this time the keyboard and the S60 user interface are the main potential problems (everything else can be solved by buying the right programs).

Well I started off with a Psion 5 and the only things I miss are the keyboard and built in spell checker. I would not want to go back to a device as big as a Psion 5 again and so can't expect such a usable keyboard. There is no excuse for the lack of spell checking though (Anyone know if the E90 has it?). The PIM applications may not be so good but the S60 ones are absolutely fine for my limited requirements and I suspect for the vast majority of peoples. The E90 looks good to me and may well be my E61 replacement later this year.

I notice that the register report again describes the E90 as a brick. Which I assume they mean in a derogatory way. This is a daft comment there are a range of smartphones with different functionality and usability. Its a bit like saying a Land Rover is not as good looking and small as a Ferrari but I know which one I would want to have if I needed to get to the other side of a ploughed field with a family of four children! I also know which one to have to impress the ladies and your mates.

I think we should not make such a big issue from a casual encounter between The Register and the E90 - The Register's only aim is to gain attention not to inform. My-Symbian has an informed review of the E90 - I think AAS should do a review ASAP.

I have to say, Andrew's comments on the Reg seemed pretty spot-on to me. While the E90 looks like a fantastic device phone-wise, its keyboard still looks too small (unfortunately not much Nokia can do about this, since the Communicator form-factor simply doesn't support the size of a touch-typable keyboard).

Not only that, but the S60 UI really IS limiting in a device like this. (Heck, it's limiting in ANY device -- a powerful device like this will merely show up its limitations.) Having said that, the side-by-side list and detail view mods to most of the apps are a crucial usability improvement for the S60 apps on the E90. Be interesting to see how they work in practice -- if they're worse than S80's already clunky UI, then they'll be a real pain in the neck, and ripe for replacement. ;)

To dismiss Andrew's comments as hankering for the Psion glory days is to misread his careful and pointed commentary. All that Psion has to do with it is that they got the keyboard right, and they used it well in the context of the entire device.

Given that the major differences between the expensive E90 and cheaper S60 phones are the qwerty keyboard and large screen the question is: are these two additions adding sufficient value to make this worthwhile? Let's hope they do...

-Malcolm.

Ah the smell of debate and emotion in the comments. Love it, especially for an article written in the heat of frustration. Okay lets see what we have that I can chat about. All of this with a smile on my face, no malice intended...

-- Synchronisation
Yep it's taken Nokia and SE a while to get it stable and reliable, but it's been at least 19 months that it's been fine, so only recently seems awfully subjective.

-- I'm waiting for the E90i
Have to giggle at that. Are we at the point where we wiat for Service Pack One from Microosft and a device with an 'i' from Nokia?

-- Technology Can Go Backawards
Agreed, but by only looking at the SYmbian powered devices we're missing other obvious repalcemetns. I think I'll address this one seperatly in a moment.

-- US People and the E90
Ehrm.. Explansys is always an option. Or you can go Cingular and get an iPhone which UK/Europe isn't getting.

-- Nokia Should Buy the Psion Tech
Psion ain't selling. Period. I've tried. Any more on that story is for my autobiography.

-- Michae Mace's Chart
Yes I saw that. 100% in agreement with it, a fantastic article and viewpoint. Now I'd love to see the chart with the equivalent of contour lines to see the sales peaks and which areas acttually are profitable. i suspect the all up comunicator (ie Psion replacemetn) would barely be in the break even range. It's more a prestige thing, and allowing the E90 to be targetted a touch higher up thre slopes of profit.

-- Calling it a Brick
I think that the size of the Nokia 9000 has a lot to answer for. The word brick has stuck even 15 years down the line.

-- AAS Shoud Review the E90
Oh we will, and we'll take ourt time over it. You'll note Michael at My Symbian has been reviewing a proto unit he's had on long term loan.

One finaly thing, I mentione dto Steve that it was Andrew O's article that sparked off this train of thought, it's not 100% focused as a riposte, it was a jumping point to the revalent attitude of some to the Psion and the mythic glory days when the Uk had no real PDA comeptitor.

Do you know why they won't sell. Psion are out of the PDA markets - and only seem to do the industrial hand helds?

Its not as if Psion are going to get back into the consumer business again.


-- Nokia Should Buy the Psion Tech
Psion ain't selling. Period. I've tried. Any more on that story is for my autobiography.

One thing that the commetns her show is that people are looking for a Psion 5mx replacememnt, a soprt of do it all device for the 21st century, and who can blame that group of people. It's my belief now that the phone format is not going to deliver. Personally the 5mx never quite did it for me, I was lucky enough to get an early netBoko and consider that the best Psion managed. And it does have a natural successor in my life.

The Tablet PC.

It's form fact is only an inch wider and longer than the netbook. the pen driven interface works a dream for notes and conferences, it's powered by Windows XP so has supreme sync and compatibility with my desktop, and modern Tablets kick up close to 6 hours of working battery time.

If you need a do it all machine, then the smaller UMPC's, 12 inch Mac Powerbooks, the windows Tablets are where you should be looking, not the smartphones. having a super pwoerful pocekt computer was the Psion way (which failed). The 'copy of your information to sync later (pioneered by Palm and later Windows Mobile) won that battle in the marketplace. That's what the latest E and N devices (and even devices like the iPod) reflect.

Great post Sovind - krisse just doesn't get it.

Ewan is insulting the collective memory of the community by saying, "the past is gone, get over it"

As if that ends the discussion!

By asking us to "forget" a time when companies made great products so that we accept any old rubbish is cheap.

Face it: calling the E90 a "Communicator" is a total con.

It's just running the same cheesy PIM software that you get in an N70, and as *everyone* has pointed out, you could get this on a Sony Eric or Siemens phone five years ago.

Why couldn't Nokia license the Psion patents? Why couldn't they even do one fricking thing to improve the Piece of Sh*t PDA apps in S60 before pretending it's a new Communicator? We can see through the b*llsh*t, thanks, guys.

And the Nokia suit stands up on stage and says "with E90, no compromises" WTF? How about throwing away ten years of software, dude?


I agree with Sovind. All Nokia needed to do was give the 9300i 3G, more memory and a faster processor.

Who cares what the front cover runs - it can be Flash or an HTML widget for all I care - no one has EVER bought a Communicator for the front, just for what's inside.

Which really stinks now we know it's just an E70. Untouched by human hand since 2001.

The new Psion 5? Give me a break - this is a swindle.

Reacting to a piece on The Register, Ewan's fed up with the 'Wasn't life better with Psion in the 1990s' brigade. Time to move on and bury the memory of Psion for good, he feels...

Read on in the full article (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/4911_Can_we_please_consign_Psion_to.php).

Smells of a rant, and is so much bullstom. I read later in this thread that is is a rant, and as i am in good ranting mode i'll rant back. Its the season for it :)

I think the article entirely misses the point. The phone industry is marketing these smart phones *as* Psion style replacements. They are targeting the market segment that is looking for this kind of device. A hand held computer that is flexible enough to customize to your personal style and workflow. Something with a simple method for creating your own trivial applications and automating personal tasks. Its not too much to ask when it has been done so many many times before.

They like to brand these smart phones as 'Personal Digital Assistant' phones, whereas the reality is more like a 'Phone & Data Appliance'. These appliances have all of the power and potential to be a real PDA, but always fall short. Its almost like they are never designed with this in mind.

It could be reasonably argued that flexibility scares the fsck out of operators and FCC types, and that might be the truth. This does not preclude the possibility that such a device could be created that will still make them happy.

Psion is the poster child sure, consigned to the history books? yeh why not.

IMHO this is a case of 'if we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it'. The smartphone market seems to be repeating history over and over again with all of these flawed appliances, without looking at PDA's with a successful history or learning from its compounded mistakes.

As for tablet PC, it only confirms my argument because it is not an appliance, but a functioning hand held computer.

If someone wants troubles, just need to write something against Psion5:tongue:

I'm still waiting for a device that does what I want.
I want a two part device:
The first part is a t39m with 3G, wi-fi, skype and a camera. This device is close to my hand and I can make phone calls, see notifications and take impromptu pictures. How original.
The other part is a 8gig revo with Office, colour, bluetooth wifi, html email, Opera and headphones/mic. That I keep in my jacket pocket and I can use to work, listen to my music, write, solve problems and connect (through the first device or Wifi) to the web when I need to.
Nokia and SE keep on wanting to build all-in-one solutions. The form factors render these useless. Nokia's tablet is close to one half but they're missing a market that hasn't been catered for since Psion died. The PDA's lack keyboards, UMPCs are user unfriendly and the phones aren't designed to be 'information gateways' but instead try and present all the info themselves.
Is that a clear enough critique.

I think there are a lot of issues here, but one of the main ones is that Nokia is not Psion. They are a large Finnish phone company that used to make rubber goods, not a British company that used to make rather snazzy mini computers.
As for breaking from S80, Nokia extending S60 to the communicator range makes sense, because this allows apps to be carried across the whole S60 range, not just balkanised. This has the side effect of removing 2 menu buttons, and changing the interface.
While I cant comment on how this makes it differ from the S80 interface, it does sound like they've done a lot to meet the old interface halfway between (S70 if you will...).
I don't have much first hand experience of the Psion, but I do know that my dad has tried Psion 3s, Palm IIIs, and all manner of strange gadgets and filing systems, and now sticks with a filofax with a diary and lots of sheets of note paper in. He recently swapped his laptop for a desktop, saying that they "trick you into thinking you need a computer everywhere".
I think I'll conclude by saying that everyone wants something different, Nokia try to give everyone what they want, and we all know what happens when you try to please everyone all the time.

Krisse and Ewan - the only way that Nokia is going to produce great products is when sites like AAS stop glossing over bad products with excuses and start being more critical.

I'd be p'off if my Bugatti is inferior in many ways to Don Johnson's Miami Vice Ferrari Boxer :-) I wished

The point is this:

Nokia has targeted the so-called power user by calling the new commie the Enterprise 90

By segmenting the new phone into Enterprise, Nokia has targeted a small group of users be it, ex Psion, ex Palm but basically PDA type users who rightly have certain expectations.

Using a consumer type OS, i.e S60, which is designed to cater for the limitations of multi-tap is I think strikes me as totally wrong. The cynic in me would say - hey there are lots of suckers there, lets screw them as they'll accept anything we dish out to them. (Krisse and Ewan?) <grin>

Those of you that want to argue that a lot of things that can be done with S60 O/S, I say good for you. But it brings me back to the good ol' days whereby there were graffiti competitions for the Palm and trying to prove that it's just as quick to enter data into a Palm as it was into a 3mx. Copying the 5000 word article ended that argument.

The point is not Nokia vrs Psion. The point is to find the perfect replacement for the 5mx/Revo/200LX/Newton/Palm/Zaurus. These were great machines in their day, but whatever it is they're all superior to the current range of Nokia / SonyEric releases.

Yes, the new toys, can IM, email, surf, taking videos and pics - so what? It can't replace the 5mx/Revo/200LX/Newton/Palm/Zaurus group yet, as I'm still forced to carry a Revo.

I've worked with both Psion and Nokia.

Psion failed because of incompetence. Potter retired after his heart attack and visionless yes men replaced him. I view the whole Psion saga with sadness and bitterness. Sadness for what could have been, bitterness for the huge amounts of money and time that I lost through their incompetence. So to say that I'm a Psion fanboy is nonsense because the amount of money lost by me with Psion can buy me every single model of phone that Nokia produced 20 times over.

Nokia. Let me use Symbian, Nokia, SonyEric interchangeably.

At the first Symbian conference in London - 1999 (I think), Symbian, Nokia, Ericsson talked about mobile internet, about mapping etc.

The 5mx was launched by some Psion yes-man flunkey. I know his name - he gave a really tortured long drawn out speech of trying to say something significant when he was launching something insignificant. Fan boys like me gasped with delight - wow double the memory, double the speed. Kind of reminds me of the E90 fanboys now (tongue-in-cheek).

I went out for drinks with the Nokia guys. These guys had passion. We all thought the world would be conquered.

Fast forward the launch of 9210. What struck me while working with Nokia was this - virtually none of them used the 9210. How can this be?

To me it is this - you don't use it you don't know what is wrong. There was a distinct lack of passion for the product. Steve Jobs would have torn all his hair out.

This I feel is what happened to the E90. - they don't know or care enough to want to know the target user.

Users of 5mx/Revo/200LX/Newton/Palm/Zaurus/9xxx series tend to be very much standalone i.e. they don't need to collaborate in the Microsoft Exchange Lotus Notes sort of environment. If you want to do that, buy a Window Mobile, because Microsoft is never going to make it easy for you.

They also usually are small business people who have to do almost all the things themselves with virtually no tech support..

That's why the 9500 and 9300 series are huge sellers in Asia. It's similar to when the Psions were big sellers in Europe because the PC was not central to business then in Europe - no synch required. The Palm was big in the US even with bad data entry because the PC was central and synching is required.

Asia now is like Europe in the 1980s and 1990s, except that it's really booming and vibrant. People are doing business, haggling and trading in the real world. They need that database, they need that fax while they're on the motorcycle or in the truck. WiFi, Skype, IM are time wasters. The only IM they need is called SMS.

Well with the E90, Nokia has ignored this people. These people don't need telco-plans etc they just need the tools to do the job. Nokia blew their chance with the E90.

These people need the following

1. phone to call
2. good speakerphone for good conferencing
3. fax (E90 can't do it probably because it is s60 based) Small transportation company I know has over 100 9300s just for this capability as they need it for order confirmations, directions etc (that's the real world of small business) Told the boss about the E90 - he said he'll need to buy a shit load now as spares.
4. Multiple phone numbers simultaneously active on the same phone (in Asia carrying 2 - 3 phones is common and invariably one is a 9300)
5. Good Address Book - it's all about who you know and hey I've a keyboard I can put in more details.
6. Good Diary - hey I've a keyboard I can put in more details.
7. email capabilities
8. fast web capabilities for online banking probably that is very Java capable, that adheres to Internet Explorer's standards - like it or not that is the real world. Put more ram and processor speed if that is what is required or else don't just pretend that it can do it.
9. Text editor that can read MS-Word
10. Freeform database
11. Spreadsheet.
12. pdf
13. vibrate

These are the bare minimum in my view to qualify for Enterprise. If it can't do it, it is an overpriced toy.

Extras like Skype, IM, Wireless etc, well I can tell you most of them don't have the time for that as they know making money is about calling and faxing and meeting people - everything else is fluff.

What is so difficult about that?

I don't need s60 in front. In fact black and white LCD works better because a businessman I need to see the missed call immediately rather than having to do a regressive 2 step to see if there is a missed call.

Charge 800 - 1000 Euros - if it is any good, it'll find its customers and you can count me in.

Yes it is a niche product but so what? People that really need it are willing to pay for it. Steve Jobs understands that - people will pay for good design.

At this moment - for PDA centric users there is really only the Treo and the Windows Mobile.

Whoever from AAS that gets to review the E90 should really try to review it from an Enterprise point of view. If there is any sentence or impression along the lines of "most of us that are familiar with the s60 device would be immediately at hone...." means that the product has failed miserably for its supposedly intended target audience.

Sovind, all your must have items are purely software, other than fax and vibrate. If there was sufficient demand, then surely someone would write it. It seems a little naive to write off a device you haven't used because of software you haven't tested. After all, what is it that the E90 doesn't do that you can't possibly live without?

Also, to review from an Enterprise perspective means that you are looking at connectivity issues and the Lotus Notes/Exchange world, because that's what Enterprises use. On the other hand, your wish-list would appear to be directed towards the requirements of small-businesses and entreprenuers.

And as far as I can see, Steve Jobs understands that you can make money out of selling the idea that you are unique and individual, and that buying products from his company re-inforces your uniqueness. His attitude is every bit a capitalist as Bill Gates, and possibly even more Stalinist! A bit sad really for a company that is supposedly a font for creativity.

I'm looking forward to the E90, as the 9500 I have now is just too big to comfortably take everywhere. I'll live with the built-in software, or buy something better, just like I do with my PC.

Ewam wrote;

> Comment: One thing that the commetns her show is that people are looking
> for a Psion 5mx replacememnt, a soprt of do it all device for the 21st
> century, and who can blame that group of people. It's my belief now that
> the phone format is not going to deliver. Personally the 5mx never quite did
> it for me, I was lucky enough to get an early netBoko and consider that the > best Psion managed. And it does have a natural successor in my life.
>
> The Tablet PC.

Actually, and don't shoot me, it's just an opinion, but I think the closest to a 5mx replacement now is either;

The HTC Athena (http://www.pocketinfo.nl/artikel/7269/t-mobile-lanceert-de-ameo.html)

Or this imate Ultimate device. (http://www.theunwired.net/media/news/i-mate_ultimate4.jpg)

Not a big fan of either, but them seem more like connected 5mx's than anything else I've seen.

What I missed in all the comments is performance!
Did anyone of AAS (Steve, Ewan, Krisee) ever try to compare an Psion 5x or revo with a Nokia E61 by for example searching for a contact? I'm quit sure they did ;-) and I also know it's not "fair" because Psions didn't use their cpu for managing phonecalls only had grey-scale-screens, etc. However, I think we all got used to the fact that new devices have a lot of nice add-ons (camera, mp3, etc.) for the price of "slugish" performance.

I agree, the times of Psion 5mx are over, but I haven't found a PROPER replacement yet.

Just another gadgeteer

(3xrevo, 1x5mx, 1xnetBook and a lot of Nokias ;-))

One thing that people seem to miss is the fact that Psion no longer produces consumer handhelds for one reason, and one reason only; they couldn't sell enough of them. At the end of the day, Nokia (or whoever else) have absolutely zero interest in producing a Psion replacement, because the market just isn't there. If it was, Psion would still be selling Psions...

The Nokia communicator range is essentially a brilliant piece of engineering (this from a P910 user), which does most things pretty well and does have a keyboard (albeit not up to the high standards of the Psion 5 series). What it does not set out to be is a Psion replacement.

Don't get me wrong, I have owned several (6 to be exact) Psions, and I've enjoyed using every one of them. I still use my netbook every day. However, anyone who expects Nokia to somehow produce a communicator-sized device (or smaller) with all of the features of a Psion 5 series is living in cloud-cuckoo land...

I must admit to being somewhat amused by the vitriol poured on poor-old Ewan (though I guess he must have half expected that!).

Andrew here. It's really hard to figure out who said with the way the comments are formatted, so apologies if I misattribute quotes. Pace Ewan:

-- Why are people upset?
The first comparison to Psion was made, amongst others, by Steve, who implied the E90 was a worthy successor. Repeated yesterday: "I've a feeling that the new E90 is the one device that the remaining ex-Psion users looking for a 1 for 1 replacement will flock to." After I demurred at El Reg, Ewan chipped in with a comment designed to close down further discussion: can we all just move on and stop making Psion comparisons, please? In other words, AAS writers are permitted to make *favourable* comparisons between the E90 and Psion, but no one else is permitted to make *unfavourable* comparisons. This is a bit Stalinist, to put it mildly.

(There's also the strange sight of someone who tried so hard to revive the 5MX behind the scenes, now telling us it was rubbish all along!)

-- S60: Years of neglect
We've all been guilty, me included, of looking the other way as Nokia rolled out version after version of S60 with same sub-standard PDA applications. The forums are full of users pleading for notes sync, or to-do items with categories (doh!) stretching back years. The S60 Human Interface hasn't been touched in four years, apart from elastoplast additions like the Multimedia button.

S80 and Hildon had such features, and Nokia broke a promise to roll the functionality back into S60. So now it's no longer possible to ignore the years of neglect, confusion and bad management. The E90 isn't a worthy successor to the Psion, in my opinion, and it's arguable whether it's even a worthy successor to the 9300.


-- Surely S60 can't be so bad? It's a Communicator, dammit!
Yes, but it's still a step backwards from the 9300. Here's an example that's apparent to anyone who uses the E90 coming off the S80. S60 is a one-handed interface with two softkeys, but one is always dedicated to the back/cancel/no button. So all the menu options hang off one menu. For example, the Contacts application, in default view, has 19 menu options: Open, Call ... , PTT Options ... , Create message, New contact, Edit, Delete, Duplicate, Add to Group, Belongs to Groups, Mark/Unmark..., Copy... , SIM contacts, Send, Sync settings, Help and Exit. On my E70, you can see only six of these menu options at any one time.

Now roll the words "Psion", "Worthy" and "Successor" around your tongue!


-- Sovind
"... These are the bare minimum in my view to qualify for Enterprise. If it can't do it, it is an overpriced toy..." That's the best post I've ever read on a phone forum, thank you - it should be mandatory reading at Nokia. It's actually worse than you think, because like all organizations who've lost their way, Nokia is prone to marketing fads. And the current fad is "buzz marketing". It's pro-actively going after gadget heads and hot-rodders, and ignoring the SMEs and Asian market you describe. If you meet one of these Nokia marketers, they'll probably tell you fax is "now a web surrvice", or some such specious bullshit. This is how great companies fail.



-- It's the best we're going to get, so shut up everybody
Ewan: "we should ...realise that perhaps the idea of a small clamshell pocket computer never reached the mainstream, and never will."

It's incorrect to draw the inference that all everyone here wants the 5MX or Revo back, with or without added telephony. I can only speak for myself though, and I wouldn't want an 5MX-sized slab as a phone. We'd like to be given the choice, though, and that's not something Nokia has ever offered, or ever will. Nokia's ownership of S80 and market dominance means no one is likely to try, either.

What I missed in all the comments is performance!
Did anyone of AAS (Steve, Ewan, Krisee) ever try to compare an Psion 5x or revo with a Nokia E61 by for example searching for a contact? I'm quit sure they did ;-) and I also know it's not "fair" because Psions didn't use their cpu for managing phonecalls only had grey-scale-screens, etc. However, I think we all got used to the fact that new devices have a lot of nice add-ons (camera, mp3, etc.) for the price of "slugish" performance.

(3xrevo, 1x5mx, 1xnetBook and a lot of Nokias ;-))

The phonecall/network part of the device runs on a different dedicated chip, not on the application processor. SOS 9 has now made it possible to have a single chip architecture but I don't think any manufacturers have got a single chip SOS device in production. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Having never used a Psion I don't want to make a comparison; but I eagerly await the E90. Yes I will miss the rock solid stability, the menus, the 4 CBAs, etc. but I'd like to have a camera, a fast processor, a decent web browser; and most importantly a fully functioning front cover environment.

From Nokia's POV; they can develop a new S80 version 3 of some sort but how many of these new devices will they sell; is it worth spending all that money without returns? I don't know if that is a wrong or right POV.

AMK

"I'll live with the built-in software, or buy something better, just like I do with my PC."

You cannot compare a device like a phone/pda to a PC. With a PC I can upgrade any component that is underperforming. You simply cannot do that with a phone (the only "upgrade" you can perform is buy a bigger storage card, and if you're lucky maybe a firmware upgrade or two). So any sub-standard software such as the one-shot alarm, and the less than adequate calendar that are included in the system which necessitates replacement software means that the included sub-standard software is wasting space on the phone - space that is precious on a limited device such as a phone/pda.

If the E90 really does come with the standard s60v3 pim suite then I for one will not buy it. Is it really that hard for Nokia to use the Psion's calendar/time/alarm apps as a baseline? Take the alarm function, even my antiquated windup clock can do daily repeated alarms! WTF were they smoking when they decided it would be good exercise for you to set the alarm each time you wanted to use it? And which idiot decided that 1 alarm is good enough? I have digital watches going back 20 years which have more than 1 alarm and even calculators have more than 1 alarm.

The reason why people pine for the good old days of the Psion PDA is that the builtin software really are first-class. People expect that software as well as hardware get better over time and hence ex-Psion users are disappointed when they see Nokia's offerings. If I bought a TV today and it didn't have a remote control, or OSD, or even PIP I would be sorely p*ssed to put it mildly. And in any case, the things that they like about the Psion are mostly objective.

Someone mentioned that Nokia sells more phones in a few months than Psion had sold PDAs in the space of 10 years. Well what does Nokia do with the profit from selling those phones? Is it too much to ask that they spend a little bit of it on improving the software?

"I'll live with the built-in software, or buy something better, just like I do with my PC."

You cannot compare a device like a phone/pda to a PC. With a PC I can upgrade any component that is underperforming. You simply cannot do that with a phone (the only "upgrade" you can perform is buy a bigger storage card, and if you're lucky maybe a firmware upgrade or two). So any sub-standard software such as the one-shot alarm, and the less than adequate calendar that are included in the system which necessitates replacement software means that the included sub-standard software is wasting space on the phone - space that is precious on a limited device such as a phone/pda.

If the E90 really does come with the standard s60v3 pim suite then I for one will not buy it. Is it really that hard for Nokia to use the Psion's calendar/time/alarm apps as a baseline? Take the alarm function, even my antiquated windup clock can do daily repeated alarms! WTF were they smoking when they decided it would be good exercise for you to set the alarm each time you wanted to use it? And which idiot decided that 1 alarm is good enough? I have digital watches going back 20 years which have more than 1 alarm and even calculators have more than 1 alarm.

The reason why people pine for the good old days of the Psion PDA is that the builtin software really are first-class. People expect that software as well as hardware get better over time and hence ex-Psion users are disappointed when they see Nokia's offerings. If I bought a TV today and it didn't have a remote control, or OSD, or even PIP I would be sorely p*ssed to put it mildly. And in any case, the things that they like about the Psion are mostly objective.

Someone mentioned that Nokia sells more phones in a few months than Psion had sold PDAs in the space of 10 years. Well what does Nokia do with the profit from selling those phones? Is it too much to ask that they spend a little bit of it on improving the software?

.... one-shot alarm ... Take the alarm function, even my antiquated windup clock can do daily repeated alarms! WTF were they smoking when they decided it would be good exercise for you to set the alarm each time you wanted to use it? And which idiot decided that 1 alarm is good enough? I have digital watches going back 20 years which have more than 1 alarm and even calculators have more than 1 alarm.
....

All that ranting and ... there actually is multiple alarms in E90 (and other FP1 phones :-).

As far as I'm concerned, lots of this thread is about something entirely irrelevant. The focus is Psion vs something else; the 5mx vs 9500, the 5mx vs E90, the 5mx vs. W950 etc.

Obviously the little edge that a 5mx still has can be easily listed. But it's all besides the point.

Most of the Psion users I know of think in terms of:

5mx AND P990
5mx AND W950
5mx AND N93

and even though it sounds a bit illogical to me

5mx AND E90/9500.

Does using a 5mx along with the latest Symbian v9.3 phone mean that you have not moved forward? That you're still stuck in the past? Hardly.

The reason I keep on using the 5mx has nothing to do with emotions. Maybe a little to do with familarity, but not emotions. It's purely and entirely pragmatism. There are some features, yes very few but still important things, where the 5mx still reign supreme. And along with a P990 or N93 I get the best of both worlds.

And to round it all off, I still have not found a way of talking in the 9500/E90/9210/9300 and typing at the same time. Conference mode is not an option as others might overhear or it's impossible due to background noise. BT headset, sure, but is it ready when you receive that urgent overseas call? A "typing machine" like the 5mx is always there, ready to be used.

Ewan mentioned "Psion ain't selling. Period. I've tried. Any more on that story is for my autobiography." and Andrew Orlowski said that "Even though Psion doesn't use the IP in its products any more, it won't license the patents, we're told, so no company can recreate the Psion experience. "

Recently posltd (http://www.posltd.com/products.htm) tried to start selling re-badged versions of the 5mx, calling it the psiX pda. I called them, interested in placing an order last year, and they responded that they were having trouble raising the investment to get manufacture going. This contradicts the idea that Psion is somehow holding onto the IP for the 5mx. Can anyone expand further on this?

The point of the article you reference is that sometimes technology can go backwards.

Some tech does go backwards, and it's fairly standard Big Company Stuff, ISTM -- barring exceptional organisation, big companies either aren't able to design good stuff, or can't make their development deliver the design. (Or, in so many cases, don't even *need* to deliver really good stuff in order to continue making vast profits.)

(A great deal of "big company madness" went on when Symbian was formed.)

However, IMHO if you took 30 or 40 competent people out of Nokia, and gave them a couple of years, a budget and autonomy, they could happily design and build a truly awesome Series5-replacement (online or otherwise) that would do many of the wonderful things mentioned in this thread. (Last time I checked there were something like 1500 people on the Series60 team. When you think of what 40 or so such teams could do...)

(ISTM)
Nick

Can we stop talking about the damn Psion ???? Psion's place is now in the museum... and it's not coming back people !

Enough with the Psion. Who cares ????

I struggle to know if people are all being serious here.

I had the Psion 5 and 5mx (I still have the latter but haven't used it for 7 or so years).

I stuck with the 5mx for the first few iterations of PocketPC because if with the limited memory and CPU it was far more functional and 'performant'. Interestingly I never had a problem with the keyboard ribbon - although a hair line crack developed on the top right corner.

I have fond memories.

I had a scanned in picture of my first child on it ...
I used TomTom City Maps and Routeplanner (before they were TomTom) with my Magellan 315GPS to navigate me around - worked very well.

The reason for my eventual jump to Windows Mobile was because in the iPAQ3970 it finally got the point where the positives on the 5mx were eventually out weighed by the negatives of Windows Mobile. The performance, colour non reflective screen and diversity of genuinely useful apps on Windows Mobile eventually became more important than the awesome keyboard.

Standard apps on Windows Mobile were and still are rubbish.

If you spend a load .. which I did, you have far better apps - even than the Psion.

I have :

Softmaker Office - a Word and Excel compatible replacement that genuinely covers all the desktop Microsoft products capabilities inc macros, charts, embedding etc.

Pocket Informant - Much more functional that Outlook
FlexMail - Almost as functional as Outlook
PIEplus - full tab browser with more options that Internet Explorer 7
CashOrganiser - more functional than MS Money or Quicken
40iPlay - technically better music playback than any ipod
CoPilot 6
PhatNotes - Incredible functional notes management
1-Calc - a far more sophisiticated calculator than anything else I've seen
Resco Explorer - far more power than Windows Explorer

the list goes on.

The tide is changing again. I went from a 3970 to a 4700 (VGA) to a 2750 (really fast and huge amounts of memory - now upgraded to WM5 and running all my s/w) and finally to the first TyTN in the UK - a Vodafone VPA Compact III / v1605.

The latter was a great device ... but following major QA issues - 7 replacements, Vodafone finally agreed to offer the exchange for something else.

The initial decision was to go for the N95 (I didn't know about the E90 at the time). I'd use that for push mail, phone and reference ... and use the 2750 for the heavy apps (BT HSDPA via the N95).

They have now agreed that because the TyTN had the keyboard, they will exchange it for the E90 on the 1st of May .... and I'm very happy.

The negatives for me ....

Symbian doesn't have (from what I can see) software currently available that is as sophisticated as the best Windows Mobile s/w :

I can find no full Finance package, no really feature rich calculator, no customisable today screen (active standby) capability, no Avantgo client, no good third party GPS s/w that uses the internal GPS (I understand that for some reason CPL is flaky on S60. Quick Office is currently close to Softmaker.

But most things get 80% of the way to what I need.

The positives ...

I've always had a love hate relationship with touch screens and stylus. As long as the E90 has a good navigable interface I'll be happy.
The keyboard must be better than the TyTN - which was actually very good. If I need better in rare situations, I've got my Stowaway BT keyboard and mouse.

The ability to use the external 'personality' for most of the day to day events / calls etc with a proper phone keyboard.

The internal clamshell 'personality' for significant data entry and web browsing will be great.

I'm excited :-)

Yes ... it's ok to remember the good aspects of the Psion - in it's day and for a long while after (at least 3 years in to Windows Mobile) it was untouchable ... and there are still things about it that designers could learn from.

In other respects ... things have moved on ... in some areas Windows Mobile is clearly ahead - perhaps because the bulk of Symbian devices didn't have the hardware or power user interest until recently and apps were developed for it. In other areas .... many other areas, it looks like the N95 and E90 are ahead of Windows Mobile .... there's not much in it ... and frankly it comes down to the individuals needs at the time ... but what is clear is that Windows Mobile has driven the N95 and E90 to the great heights they've reached in this generation of Symbian devices. The i-mate Ultimate 7150 and Toshiba G900 are very close ... but for me this time I want the external phone layout of the E90 ... as regards the N95 ... until HTC bring out a 5mp autofocus version of the Trinity ... it's the leader of the pack ... unless you need the more advanced WM software or keyboard.

For me ... it's back to Symbian for the first time in 8 years ... although I'll keep the 2750 until the Symbian S60 software library improves.

It's an exciting time ... let's enjoy it.

Paul.

Clearly I meant that ' it finally got to the point when the balance of positives and negatives on the 5mx were outweighed by the balance of positives and negatives on Windows Mobile.

If anyone has good recommendations for the following types of app, please let me know :

Multi category notes
PIM s/w - Calendar, Tasks, Contacts
Mail client (really not sure how functional the Nokia standard one is)
Web browser - I like to be able to select text and save images
Calculator - with unit conversion etc

and most importantly a fully functional finance app with qif import, graphing, reporting .... a long time ago I had a freeware app called ABP Finance by Malcolm Bryant which seemed much more complete than anything I can see for S60 today .... again with the clamshell form factor, I'm sure Finance should become a key area for the E90.

Also ... games ... the proper version of Mahjong rather than the tile matching version, good gfx adventures, bejewelled, bubbleshooter, snooker etc would be good.

And finally ... are their any good incremental and image based backup utilities ?

Cheers

Paul.

I'm coming in rather late on this thread (well, very late, as I've only just found it), but I couldn't resist chipping in...

I have owned both a Psion Series 3c and 5mx, although I forget exactly when I bought them - I definitely had my 3c by the late spring of 1998 when I visited the US, and I think I had 'upgraded' to the 5mx by the summer of 2000.

The 3c had its benefits (and sometimes I wish I'd kept it), but I do think the 5mx was overall the more useful machine of the two. Quite aside from the third-party apps one could load onto the 5mx, I still believe Psion Word for that machine wipes the floor with any wordprocessor available for S60. (If anyone knows a WP which will run on the N95, and which supports document styles - paras, headings, etc. - please let me know.)

As for the Internet functionality: for a time around 2000-2002, I managed to link up my 5mx over infrared to my mobile phone of that time (IIRC, it was a Nokia 6210i - on Orange UK, silvery in colour and had GPRS), and with this setup I could do e-mail, FTP and simple Web browsing from almost anywhere. It came in handy for Christmas 2001, when my family and I stayed in a holiday cottage in rural Dorset, on the fringes of network coverage. From there (with a few retries on most occasions due to the phone's network connection dropping), I was able to exchange e-mails via the 5mx with my fiancee in South Korea, whom I would marry just over two months later :)

But anyway. Since my 5mx finally stopped responding to repair attempts around 2003, it is only in the last month or so (since I upgraded to a Nokia N95) that I finally have the makings of a mobile communications setup which matches (and in this case, surpasses) what I had with the 5mx/phone combo back in 2000-2. That's not to say that no such solutions have been on the market - just that I haven't owned any of them, and also to point out that the 5mx was potentially (and in my case, actually) a pretty good machine for mobile comms, certainly for the time. It also made a very useful mobile phone companion - any other Psion alumni out there remember PhoneMan Pro?

All that's missing for me is a decent keyboard (ah, the refrain of the old 5mx fan :tongue: ), and that seems easily rectified with something like a Stowaway Bluetooth unit. It seems somehow fitting that the Nokia N95 is running a descendant of the OS in the Psion 5mx, although there's no shortage here of people suggesting that not all the progress has been forward...

I'm not blindly nostalgic over the 5mx - it suited me at the time, but the hardware finally gave out on me, and my N95 does almost everything the 5mx could, and a great deal more (though I wish the former had the battery life of the latter!).

On the other hand, for its faults, the 5mx was a great little computer, and I can only guess at what might have been, had Psion stayed in the consumer market some years longer. A Series 5mx descendant with colour screen, WiFi, Bluetooth, 3G, camera, etc., and a decent keyboard?

Probably would've had N95 battery life, too... :o